Why I wont be getting a Fleet Carrier.

What uses would I have for fleet carrier.
  1. Transferring credits to my alt account
  2. Moving my ships around the bubble for events
  3. Instant Travel to places like hutton orbital
  4. A Place to land large ships in systems without large pads

What uses I could have, but the implementations puts a stop to.
  1. Commodity Market
    1. The whole point of a market is to buy low and sell high and to get other people to do the leg work and skim profits from the middle. The problem is that across the entire bubble the market spread is so squished that it's not worth it. The Tritium cost alone to move the ship would eat up all the profits made this way, let alone the upkeep.
    2. Even if the market spread was worth the effort so both the carrier owner and the visitors could profit equally... and I set up buy/sell orders there's no way for commanders to find the trade route and come to my carrier to make the money.
  2. Shipyard/Outfitting
    1. Bundled packs have to go. who buys E, B & C class modules (with very few exceptions) NO ONE BUYS THEM - more to the point they are crap modules no one SHOULD buy them. If no one buys them why they :poop: would I want to stock them? The Answer is I would never stock them, no one would ever buy them, so they just take up space on the carrier.
    2. "We don't want people to make mistakes with custom bundles" - I call :poop: to that statement - anyone that can afford a carrier knows how to play the game.
    3. There's no way to undercut NPC stations - another reason for people not to buy stuff.
    4. Non-Carrier-Owners get shafted by the small print when they don't get 100% refunds on the modules they paid for - and they don't get told they wont get 100% refunds, let alone how much they will get; which goes contrary to everything else in the game.
  3. You have to be on the carrier to refuel it - It's either remote management or it's not - if it can't refuel itself from stock then it's not remote management.
  4. Positioning - If I wanted to place a fleet carrier in an optimal place for my squadron to have their fun; I cant. I can put it "closeish" but it might be on the wrong side of the planet. If I could say "please put it in this parking spot" it would solve that problem (even if I had to be in the system to do that)
  5. BGS - the key has been "Fleet Carriers don't effect the BGS" - well if our crew is at a combat zone or haz res and want a convient place to park and refuel hand in their combat bonds & bounty vouchers - if they can hand in them in, but they don't affect the BGS then the fleet carrier has reduced value and they may as well fly the extra distance to the station. In fact it would be a reason NOT to use a carrier (or at least remove the voucher guy) because they might accidentally hand in their vouchers.

What I have absolutely no use for
  1. Cartographics - useful to people out in the black, but I live in the bubble
  2. Secure Trading - I don't want to trade in stolen goods

So given that I have uses for fleet carrier why not get one?

The honest fact is they are just too expensive - I don't spend 10 million per month doing the four activities above, let alone 20 million per week - and given the implemented uses for making money on the carrier aren't feasable if it can't pay for itself I'm not going to buy one; and even if it can pay for itself, the likelyhood is it's going to be in "an idea spot in the bubble" rather than where I want it to be so I'd actually need two of them, one to make the money and one for personal use.

No one would invest their hard earned money in a KFC franchise if it wasn't going to at least break even.
I'm not going to spend a penny on fleet carriers until at minimum they can pay for themselves (or the upkeep is removed, or so inexpensive it's not worth talking about)


Under what circumstances would I buy a fleet carrier

Option 1 - Lower the cost
Considering the only use I have for fleet carriers is as a personal parking garage, then the basic upkeep is way too high.
If the upkeep with rearm/refuel/repair was 1 million per week I'd get one as a personal garage - but half a billion credits a year for just basic services forget it.
Also, tritium is really, really too expensive - 50 million credits for a full tank? 1.125 billion for a carrier's worth? c'mon

Option 2 - Increase rewards

Another option would be to do a balance pass on all the game play rewards for Elite Tier
  1. Put Ally reputation Elite Rank Passenger rewards back up to their pre-nerf values
    1. Long Range missions used to pay 75-100mil for trips to colonia and sagA
    2. Elite/Criminal Tourist Missions used to pay 15-20mil
  2. Ally reputation Elite Rank Trading Mission rewards should be double
  3. Massacre missions used to make 50-100mil/hour - now they take so long they aren't worth it.
  4. Make the commodity market spread across the bubble higher; huge discounts in wealthy core systems, huge markups in poor fringe systems.
  5. Smuggling missions - can we please have them back in the game? They used to be all over the place and "nationalist" factions used to give them as well as pirate ones.
    1. I know that they are still exist in the game but where they are? god only knows - they used to be everywhere
    2. They are fun and rewarding, please put them back in
    3. If you're worried about BGS - then just make them have smaller affect.
Option 3 - My assumptions are wrong
I might be wrong and other players may prove the viability of fleet carriers as net-gain asset.
But this still means that my fleet carrier wont be where I want it to be; it'll be where it's most profitable to be.

Option 4 - Lower the Cost v2
Make Commodity Market an optional service that was free to install and take 4 million of the basic upkeep and put it on there leaving 1 million for the Basic Carrier.
Extend Ship and Module storage for all players - keep the Shipyard and Module SERVICES for running that franchise.


So it all comes down to three questions
Do I want a credit sink personal parking garage? NO
Do I want my personal parking garage to also be a strategically placed, possiably net-gain franchise asset ? NO
Do I want a Squadron Helper station? Without being able to park it in a specific place, next to a specific has-rez or CZ, and without the Bonds/Vouchers affecting the BGS when handed in; NO.
(this doesn't need to be a ultra specific place, so long as it's on the same side of the planet as the has rez/CZ and we don't have to fly around the gravity well)

What questions could I say yes to?
Do I want personal parking garage that wasn't a credit sink? YES
Do I want a high upkeep, possiably net-gain franchise asset that wasn't also my parking garage? YES
Do I want a Squadron Helper that I can place where it's needed? YES (95% of the time this will be where i want/need my parking garage)

These prices I could live with
EDUpkeep_Recommendations.png
 
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Even if the market spread was worth the effort so both the carrier owner and the visitors could profit equally... and I set up buy/sell orders there's no way for commanders to find the trade route and come to my carrier to make the money.
Carriers appear as stations in the in-game trading tools and so show as good places to buy/sell commodities (assuming you've set orders and are offering attractive prices). There are a few bugs reported, probably due to their transient nature, but the intent is there.
 
Carriers appear as stations in the in-game trading tools and so show as good places to buy/sell commodities (assuming you've set orders and are offering attractive prices). There are a few bugs reported, probably due to their transient nature, but the intent is there.
I logged in this morning and noted that they had made improments to the in-game markets thing. Looks like a work in progress that might be polished enough to be useful. But it'll still most likely need 3rd party tools to be actually usable if you're not in the same system.
 
[*]BGS - the key has been "Fleet Carriers don't effect the BGS" - well if our crew is at a combat zone or haz res and want a convient place to park and refuel hand in their combat bonds & bounty vouchers - if they can hand in them in, but they don't affect the BGS then the fleet carrier has reduced value and they may as well fly the extra distance to the station. In fact it would be a reason NOT to use a carrier (or at least remove the voucher guy) because they might accidentally hand in their vouchers.
From what I've heard the bounty/bond hand-in service does have BGS effects for vouchers which apply to factions in the system.

Trade and UC won't affect the BGS (directly, anyway) because the carrier isn't attached to a faction, but the combat side should work
 
I logged in this morning and noted that they had made improments to the in-game markets thing. Looks like a work in progress that might be polished enough to be useful. But it'll still most likely need 3rd party tools to be actually usable if you're not in the same system.
To be honest, I use eddb.io even though they added some search mechanism to the game. I never have managed to figure that thing out.
 
What uses would I have for fleet carrier.
  1. Transferring credits to my alt account
  2. Moving my ships around the bubble for events
  3. Instant Travel to places like hutton orbital
  4. A Place to land large ships in systems without large pads

What uses I could have, but the implementations puts a stop to.
  1. Commodity Market
    1. The whole point of a market is to buy low and sell high and to get other people to do the leg work and skim profits from the middle. The problem is that across the entire bubble the market spread is so squished that it's not worth it. The Tritium cost alone to move the ship would eat up all the profits made this way, let alone the upkeep.
    2. Even if the market spread was worth the effort so both the carrier owner and the visitors could profit equally... and I set up buy/sell orders there's no way for commanders to find the trade route and come to my carrier to make the money.
  2. Shipyard/Outfitting
    1. Bundled packs have to go. who buys E, B & C class modules (with very few exceptions) NO ONE BUYS THEM - more to the point they are crap modules no one SHOULD buy them. If no one buys them why they :poop: would I want to stock them? The Answer is I would never stock them, no one would ever buy them, so they just take up space on the carrier.
    2. "We don't want people to make mistakes with custom bundles" - I call :poop: to that statement - anyone that can afford a carrier knows how to play the game.
    3. There's no way to undercut NPC stations - another reason for people not to buy stuff.
    4. Non-Carrier-Owners get shafted by the small print when they don't get 100% refunds on the modules they paid for - and they don't get told they wont get 100% refunds, let alone how much they will get; which goes contrary to everything else in the game.
  3. You have to be on the carrier to refuel it - It's either remote management or it's not - if it can't refuel itself from stock then it's not remote management.
  4. Positioning - If I wanted to place a fleet carrier in an optimal place for my squadron to have their fun; I cant. I can put it "closeish" but it might be on the wrong side of the planet. If I could say "please put it in this parking spot" it would solve that problem (even if I had to be in the system to do that)
  5. BGS - the key has been "Fleet Carriers don't effect the BGS" - well if our crew is at a combat zone or haz res and want a convient place to park and refuel hand in their combat bonds & bounty vouchers - if they can hand in them in, but they don't affect the BGS then the fleet carrier has reduced value and they may as well fly the extra distance to the station. In fact it would be a reason NOT to use a carrier (or at least remove the voucher guy) because they might accidentally hand in their vouchers.

What I have absolutely no use for
  1. Cartographics - useful to people out in the black, but I live in the bubble
  2. Secure Trading - I don't want to trade in stolen goods

So given that I have uses for fleet carrier why not get one?

The honest fact is they are just too expensive - I don't spend 10 million per month doing the four activities above, let alone 20 million per week - and given the implemented uses for making money on the carrier aren't feasable if it can't pay for itself I'm not going to buy one; and even if it can pay for itself, the likelyhood is it's going to be in "an idea spot in the bubble" rather than where I want it to be so I'd actually need two of them, one to make the money and one for personal use.

No one would invest their hard earned money in a KFC franchise if it wasn't going to at least break even.
I'm not going to spend a penny on fleet carriers until at minimum they can pay for themselves (or the upkeep is removed, or so inexpensive it's not worth talking about)


Under what circumstances would I buy a fleet carrier

Option 1 - Lower the cost
Considering the only use I have for fleet carriers is as a personal parking garage, then the basic upkeep is way too high.
If the upkeep with rearm/refuel/repair was 1 million per week I'd get one as a personal garage - but half a billion credits a year for just basic services forget it.
Also, tritium is really, really too expensive - 50 million credits for a full tank? 1.125 billion for a carrier's worth? c'mon

Option 2 - Increase rewards

Another option would be to do a balance pass on all the game play rewards for Elite Tier
  1. Put Ally reputation Elite Rank Passenger rewards back up to their pre-nerf values
    1. Long Range missions used to pay 75-100mil for trips to colonia and sagA
    2. Elite/Criminal Tourist Missions used to pay 15-20mil
  2. Ally reputation Elite Rank Trading Mission rewards should be double
  3. Massacre missions used to make 50-100mil/hour - now they take so long they aren't worth it.
  4. Make the commodity market spread across the bubble higher; huge discounts in wealthy core systems, huge markups in poor fringe systems.
  5. Smuggling missions - can we please have them back in the game? They used to be all over the place and "nationalist" factions used to give them as well as pirate ones.
    1. I know that they are still exist in the game but where they are? god only knows - they used to be everywhere
    2. They are fun and rewarding, please put them back in
    3. If you're worried about BGS - then just make them have smaller affect.
Option 3 - My assumptions are wrong
I might be wrong and other players may prove the viability of fleet carriers as net-gain asset.
But this still means that my fleet carrier wont be where I want it to be; it'll be where it's most profitable to be.

So it all comes down to three questions

Do I want a credit sink personal parking garage? NO
Do I want my personal parking garage to also be a strategically placed, possiably net-gain franchise asset ? NO
Do I want a Squadron Helper station? Without being able to park it in a specific place, next to a specific has-rez or CZ, and without the Bonds/Vouchers affecting the BGS when handed in; NO.
(this doesn't need to be a ultra specific place, so long as it's on the same side of the planet as the has rez/CZ and we don't have to fly around the gravity well)

What questions could I say yes to?
Do I want personal parking garage that wasn't a credit sink? YES
Do I want a high upkeep, possiably net-gain franchise asset that wasn't also my parking garage? YES
Do I want a Squadron Helper that I can place where it's needed? YES (95% of the time this will be where i want/need my parking garage)
FWIW, the database sites should pick up carrier markets pretty well, I hope. I would imagine they would let you upload your market into the trading tools. As well as ingame stuff showing carriers.

But they are totally different from too many existing systems. It's simply not a good tool to remove money, and trying to use them as a credit sink makes them not fun. Games or game components that are not fun are bad at their job.

Carriers should be a management sim that can mostly take care of itself. With the OPTION to throw money at it to do things instantly.

Waiting overnight should refuel it, for instance. Carriers should have massive fuel scoops of various grades, for instance.

A-rate the exploration carriers, use lesser and cheaper ones for bubble carriers. Weekend warriors get away with the cheapest ones that refuel so slowly they get one or two jumps per week.
 
Why I did, eventually, get a Fleet Carrier

The main reason is, my friends twisted my arm.

There are benefits of having a Carrier.
  • All ships and modules are in one place
  • Transporting modules to an Engineer becomes a non-issue; which is a big pain point for me atm.
  • FDEV have put a trading commodity in the game (tritium) with a viable market spread - whether they leave it like that is yet to be seen.
  • Inara has made finding carriers simple - although there are some fake carriers on there.
And since I'd already grinded the credits for it and my friends said they'd pay the upkeep, which I wont let them ofc. But they wanted that I get one so.

I still think the trader market should be optional
Unless you're desperate, and willing to buy/sell at unreasonable loss making prices people are still going to trade between station-to-station.
This, in my opinion totally detracts from the viability of the Commodity Market as a viable franchise - it should be optional, and the upkeep cost removed from the base upkeep.

What I didn't do though, is install Shipyard and Outfitting.
  • It's not a viable franchise proposition - If I can't undercut stations and still make a profit - forget it.
  • Packs need to be customisable; I am not under any circumstances stocking B, C or E modules. With very rare exceptions these should not be used.
  • If people want to move their fleet/modules around; they can get their own carrier.

I would install Shipyard and Outfitting
  • If there was a special someone that I always played with that would split the cost and sharing the carrier 50/50 and we always went everywhere together. That would make sense. But that person does not exist.
And the final reason
The devs did put in a lot of hard work DLCs pay their wages - can't buy the carrier DLCs without having one :D
 
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I think Carriers are JUST beginning to be a part of the game. Once Powers are a little more prominent again, Carriers could drop huge numbers of people alleged to one power in a certain zone. They will effectively work like dropships.

With Odyssey underway, I'm certain warfare will engage on land, air and sky.
 
I think Carriers are JUST beginning to be a part of the game. Once Powers are a little more prominent again, Carriers could drop huge numbers of people alleged to one power in a certain zone. They will effectively work like dropships.

With Odyssey underway, I'm certain warfare will engage on land, air and sky.
If the base is not good , you cant build hight.
 
The main things for me are as follows:

1: ability to park myself right on top of a mining spot. Unless someone's found a station orbiting the same body as a ring with multiple hotspots that also offers consistently high prices for the things mined in that ring, that's pretty special.

2: if I'm doing CZs, being able to park myself around whatever planet has two zones so I can bounce between them. Whether I have a place to rearm around the same planet or not is basically the decider for whether I bring my multicannon corvette (which clears them faster but needs to rearm after two zones) or my beam krait (which... let's face it, the ship has more endurance than the pilot does)

3: Not having to hunt down markets for minerals. Seriously, don't underestimate how much of a timesaver the market is. After loading up as per part 1, just do a quick check on eddb for the going rate, set your price to 50k short of that, and park yourself anywhere near a decent concentration of players before you log off for the night. 950k for void opals, that usually go for just over a million? That's, what, a 5% hit? Who cares about 5%, what you're buying with that 5% is the ability to log on the next day with the selling part entirely taken care of for you. For the other players, it's effectively a 50k/t profit trade route which is insanely lucrative compared to regular trading.

4: with the public statement feature on Inara, the ability to announce my presence in a system so that if I rock up in someone's home system and start messing with the BGS, they can tell me about it. "fighting ghosts" is a common term thrown around the BGS forum and a lot of it boils down to the fact that unless there's an actual PMF there, you have no way of knowing if anyone else calls the place home.
 
I think Carriers are JUST beginning to be a part of the game. Once Powers are a little more prominent again, Carriers could drop huge numbers of people alleged to one power in a certain zone. They will effectively work like dropships.
I did suggest this with the power community and I was told that that amount of organisation to make this work is unrealistic.
 
I did suggest this with the power community and I was told that that amount of organisation to make this work is unrealistic.
You and I both don't think so. I'm sure there are others. Sure, it'll take a bit of organization though.

I wish we could have an in-game chat specifically for people who are under a certain power. However that would require a separate server to host since all chat in-game is instance based.
 
I like my carrier and all the services. Is it perfect? No.
I have all services installed except for black market.
Our squadron uses the shipyard and outfitting storage to keep extra modules we may need while out of the bubble.
I did buy a few extras to keep available such as Srv's for those moments when someone destroys one 1500 LY from the bubble trying to get air on a geyser.
You'd be surprised how many people need one out there lol do I make much? No, not why I do it.
I make money with my carrier by easing the burden of how I have been making money all along. mining, trading, combat. With a Fleet Carrier it's just easier. Especially with a wing or squadron.
Personally I cannot imagine the game without one now. That would definitely suck.
 
Bounty vouchers don't affect BGS?
Why should vouchers affect BGS anyways? Shouldn't killing wanted pilots be what's affecting the BGS? And there are other cases, such as defending isntallations, where BGS is affected without missions or station interaction, so it's definitively possible!
 
already spotted a flaw in this , carriers commands can set fuel prices, too give themselfs a profit margin, to erm buy another carrier if they fail the first time.
 
If credits are the issue...

It's kinda like the old saw,

"If you have to ask the price"

It really only makes a lot of sense if you have more credits than you know what to do with. Judging by fact that there are now almost 7k FCs and that the Steam numbers are at all time highs, it would seem to be a successful addition to ED.

But it may not be for everyone who hasn't accumulated enough credits and ships to make it an obvious choice. It's really more of an option for CMDRs who were getting bored with no new things left to do in ED. From that viewpoint - it has been a most welcome addition.
 
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Bounty vouchers don't affect BGS?
Why should vouchers affect BGS anyways? Shouldn't killing wanted pilots be what's affecting the BGS? And there are other cases, such as defending isntallations, where BGS is affected without missions or station interaction, so it's definitively possible!
I actually agree with this. It should be earning the bounty voucher that counts, not turning it in. This was the biggest cause of asymmetry between murders and bounty hunting pre 3.3 - someone killing authority ships scored a transaction for every kill, whereas bounty hunters only scored one every time they returned to the station to cash in.
 
The outfitting packs are truly awful, and one of my only complaints. Otherwise I’m digging the carriers.

Let’s say I wantEd to sell haulers on my carrier. They’re totally affordable, but useless without an A rated FSD. I would have to pay like a billion just to have small A rated FSDs, because they’re included with other high-end modules lol.

Even if we can’t pick and choose modules, I’d be happy if I could buy packs of, say, A-E rated modules of one class.

I shouldn’t have to spend so much just to sell the lowest tier ships in their most basic acceptable configuration.
 
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