Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

I generally toggle it plenty during combat, but for exploration and docking, I keep that sh*t on. Docking with FA OFF is way more hassle than it's worth, I'm not keeping it on for that just so I can brag I fly exclusively FA OFF.
tbh if you turn flight assist off and keep it off you just get used to it, then it's not any harder and becomes less of a brag.
I don't think FAOff is intrinsically any harder than FAOn, but it does require training the brain to think about flight differently and it does require training a fresh set of muscle memory to go along with that. Whereas a lot of people will have flown flight sims before, or have expectations of how a flight sim works, so FAOn feels more "natural" because you already have the logic and some of the muscle memory for it.
 
Quick one on a previous post I said that you need to 'get good at your own pace', now this is very different to the standard 'git gud' response.
I firmly believe that everyone learns at a different rate but ultimately you can completely get good with any control method you desire to... My first recommendation to people around control method is simply what do you find more enjoyable to use in our little space pilot simulator we play. You WILL get good to a certain level over time and most certainly will enjoy your time in ED. If you want to reach the 1%'ers well then that will take a lot more time regardless of how you want to control your ship...

So that's out of the way this is my two cents when it come to understanding the differences between KB+M and Stick control methodologies.

Ok, here is a little bit of clarity on how mouse controls work vs stick controls that I have experienced in my 3k+ hrs in ED.
I flew 2k+ hrs with KB+M. The vast majority of it 100% FA-off with RM on. Early this year I switched RM off then in the last couple of months have pretty much been flying exclusively with HOTAS.

Here are the main options that define how your mouse 'performs', yes I know I have RM off in this shot.


So each of the 4 options below reset mouse controls different aspects of control.

Mouse Sensitivity is pretty straight forward. The higher up the slider the faster your mouse reacts to input. Most sticks don't have this as default options. The rate of deflection is based on your physical movement of the stick. Set this to your own preferences.

Mouse Deadzone is also fairly well known. It the amount of deflection you need to do 'from centre' or rest before the movement is registered and acted upon. This is also a common setting for stick control, often used to mitigate creep by analogue sensors in sticks over time or micromovements of the stick if you rest you hand on it for example. Again I say to set this to your own preferences.

Mouse power curve this acts in a similar way to Joystick curves in that it gives a change in output of the mouse based on the amount of deflection. I have mine set to about 50% with means that for the first 50% of absolute deflection I get very little output, after 50% deflection it ramps up so that at 100% it is giving me full deflection as normal. This allows me fine control around the centre point but also to do full speed turns as needed. I always recommend this to be minimal to FA-off pilots if using RM.

Relative mouse rate - Now this is the area that seems to be causing the most 'discussion' shall we say. What this does is simply define how quickly your mouse returns to it's centre once input has ceased. The mouse will continue to add input as it returns to centre. The higher the slider the faster the mouse returns to centre, that is all. This is a direct simulation of the springs on your joystick. Some stick you can adjust them to be tighter or looser it the same thing as moving the slider on this setting.

That is it... No fancy mechanics added or taken away if you turn on RM.

The return aspect of the RM setting does not apply any form or counter rotational input WHATSOEVER. If you want to see it in action, clearly where you won't be distracted by people shooting each other, go what some of my YT videos. I have a control overlay that clearly shows my mouse movements and you will see many time that I move the mouse and stop. yet my ship still spins in said direction until I manually apply a counter rotational input.

So in this I have not experienced any difference in advantages between the use of RM or stick control in ED. Simply because there is no actual difference in how the game mechanics interpret the results.

Now I am totally against anything that directly changes the flight mechanics in ED. But I am all for more control options to allow people to fly however they want etc if there is no mechanical advantage. As we know there are some changes in thruster performances based on FA selection. If such a rotational assist/dampening etc was ever added the difficult question then would be which set of rules would it apply.... would it have FA-on or Fa-off rules? would it have a middle ground? would all 3 options have to have their current models homogenised so they all had the same rules??
 
It's worth noting that the "reset mouse" binding can be used to recreate the function of immediate relative mouse action whilst relative mouse is off. When you want to neutralise mouse output - hit that button and it will kill any mouse output that the game reads, centring the mouse position, so any further action is fresh input without having to physically move the mouse to a virtual centre point. I see no reason why this additional action couldn't be made part of one's manoeuvring repertoire though it would require a readily accessible button to use accurately and with timing and precision to get consistent results.
 
It's worth noting that the "reset mouse" binding can be used to recreate the function of immediate relative mouse action whilst relative mouse is off. When you want to neutralise mouse output - hit that button and it will kill any mouse output that the game reads, centring the mouse position, so any further action is fresh input without having to physically move the mouse to a virtual centre point. I see no reason why this additional action couldn't be made part of one's manoeuvring repertoire though it would require a readily accessible button to use accurately and with timing and precision to get consistent results.
This is true. I utilise it sometimes now that I'm RM-off but never really used it when RM-on so didn't think to put it in my explanation, but very valid point.
 
It's worth noting that the "reset mouse" binding can be used to recreate the function of immediate relative mouse action whilst relative mouse is off. When you want to neutralise mouse output - hit that button and it will kill any mouse output that the game reads, centring the mouse position, so any further action is fresh input without having to physically move the mouse to a virtual centre point. I see no reason why this additional action couldn't be made part of one's manoeuvring repertoire though it would require a readily accessible button to use accurately and with timing and precision to get consistent results.
I tried to use this in the start. I have an easy use button for the thumb on my mouse, but I really couldn't come to terms with it. I was using RM-off with a key to centre mouse, but I found it cumbersome and not very effective. Maybe it would have been better if I set a deadzone on the mouse, but I don't want to have a deadzone. When I move the mouse, I want to have input, always.
 
I tried to use this in the start. I have an easy use button for the thumb on my mouse, but I really couldn't come to terms with it. I was using RM-off with a key to centre mouse, but I found it cumbersome and not very effective. Maybe it would have been better if I set a deadzone on the mouse, but I don't want to have a deadzone. When I move the mouse, I want to have input, always.
Have you tried setting your power curve? I was finding with RM-off I was getting all over the place with micro movements of the mouse. which I why I set a small dead zone and changed the power curve.
 
I generally toggle it plenty during combat, but for exploration and docking, I keep that sh*t on. Docking with FA OFF is way more hassle than it's worth, I'm not keeping it on for that just so I can brag I fly exclusively FA OFF.
You should fly with whatever mode you feel comfortable with. I personally find docking easier with FA-OFF, nothing about bragging, it is just more intuitive to me. I have never liked the way fa-on thrusters auto compensate, makes control much less fluid imo
 
Have you tried setting your power curve? I was finding with RM-off I was getting all over the place with micro movements of the mouse. which I why I set a small dead zone and changed the power curve.
I was trying it but at the time I wasn't certain what it even did. I despise any sort of mouse acceleration on games, as I then can't learn what size movement get what size input. Perhaps the power curve only work by distance - but I don't know. Once I learned about RM that was sufficient for me. The only negative I have with RM is that I can't toggle to FA-on easy, but SC I manage by using arrow keys for pitch and yaw. I might try and revisit power curves at some point.
 
Quick one on a previous post I said that you need to 'get good at your own pace', now this is very different to the standard 'git gud' response.
I firmly believe that everyone learns at a different rate but ultimately you can completely get good with any control method you desire to... My first recommendation to people around control method is simply what do you find more enjoyable to use in our little space pilot simulator we play. You WILL get good to a certain level over time and most certainly will enjoy your time in ED. If you want to reach the 1%'ers well then that will take a lot more time regardless of how you want to control your ship...

So that's out of the way this is my two cents when it come to understanding the differences between KB+M and Stick control methodologies.

Ok, here is a little bit of clarity on how mouse controls work vs stick controls that I have experienced in my 3k+ hrs in ED.
I flew 2k+ hrs with KB+M. The vast majority of it 100% FA-off with RM on. Early this year I switched RM off then in the last couple of months have pretty much been flying exclusively with HOTAS.

Here are the main options that define how your mouse 'performs', yes I know I have RM off in this shot.


So each of the 4 options below reset mouse controls different aspects of control.

Mouse Sensitivity is pretty straight forward. The higher up the slider the faster your mouse reacts to input. Most sticks don't have this as default options. The rate of deflection is based on your physical movement of the stick. Set this to your own preferences.

Mouse Deadzone is also fairly well known. It the amount of deflection you need to do 'from centre' or rest before the movement is registered and acted upon. This is also a common setting for stick control, often used to mitigate creep by analogue sensors in sticks over time or micromovements of the stick if you rest you hand on it for example. Again I say to set this to your own preferences.

Mouse power curve this acts in a similar way to Joystick curves in that it gives a change in output of the mouse based on the amount of deflection. I have mine set to about 50% with means that for the first 50% of absolute deflection I get very little output, after 50% deflection it ramps up so that at 100% it is giving me full deflection as normal. This allows me fine control around the centre point but also to do full speed turns as needed. I always recommend this to be minimal to FA-off pilots if using RM.

Relative mouse rate - Now this is the area that seems to be causing the most 'discussion' shall we say. What this does is simply define how quickly your mouse returns to it's centre once input has ceased. The mouse will continue to add input as it returns to centre. The higher the slider the faster the mouse returns to centre, that is all. This is a direct simulation of the springs on your joystick. Some stick you can adjust them to be tighter or looser it the same thing as moving the slider on this setting.

That is it... No fancy mechanics added or taken away if you turn on RM.

The return aspect of the RM setting does not apply any form or counter rotational input WHATSOEVER. If you want to see it in action, clearly where you won't be distracted by people shooting each other, go what some of my YT videos. I have a control overlay that clearly shows my mouse movements and you will see many time that I move the mouse and stop. yet my ship still spins in said direction until I manually apply a counter rotational input.

So in this I have not experienced any difference in advantages between the use of RM or stick control in ED. Simply because there is no actual difference in how the game mechanics interpret the results.

Now I am totally against anything that directly changes the flight mechanics in ED. But I am all for more control options to allow people to fly however they want etc if there is no mechanical advantage. As we know there are some changes in thruster performances based on FA selection. If such a rotational assist/dampening etc was ever added the difficult question then would be which set of rules would it apply.... would it have FA-on or Fa-off rules? would it have a middle ground? would all 3 options have to have their current models homogenised so they all had the same rules??
i will just add to your well made post (which btw and once again, totally debunk OP's claim) :
1593969273297.png
 
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Try it yourself and you will immediately notice the difference
This has nothing to do with any fine motor skills we have trained in using the mouse, but is solely due to the software support that the relative mouse provides.

I first try to align the rail gun in the middle of the sun with a high quality joystick. As soon as I have succeeded, I deviate from this intentionally and try to align myself in the middle of the sun again as fast as possible.

In the first part of the video I do this with the joystick and in the second part of the video I do it with a mouse with relative mouse with full strength.

The difference is clearly visible here. With the mouse I can easily and quickly align myself in the middle of the sun with no great effort with fine adjustment but with the joystick I deviate much further from the sun and it takes much longer and it is much more difficult to place the rail gun in the middle of the sun again because I have to compensate the rotations initiated by the joystick myself completely exactly with counter movements of the stick.

The reason that this is much easier with the mouse is that it supports the opposite rotation movements that the relative mouse offers and acts as a kind of stabilizer in FA OFF mode.

Source: https://youtu.be/hpRLALj89QY
Doesn't help you can't yaw in the game. I enjoy Star Citizen combat so much more. It's much less "atmosphere in space." So I go there for combat, and here for exploration. Lol.
 
fgs donald thats exactly the point. toogling is not wanted.
toogling is working like a break. it activates all thrusters rotation and translation and if no input is given at all it stops the ship.
this is exactly what we dont want. we are talking from perma fa off here continuesly
100 % FAOFF is sexy and requires skill, however, but the right timing of toggeling FA on/off wins high level PvP fights in the end.
So even if FDev would adjust to these wishes, it would probably create a larger number of average hotas pvpers, with a higher chance to counter griefing/ganking and to overcome one or the other griefer/ganker, allow them to hit a bit more in arranged (ring-)fights, but it will never close any gap to the top.
Which can, if at all, be closed by training, training and training, only, certain skills and talents provided. Motto: No pain, no gain. Goal: Git gud.
 
tbh if you turn flight assist off and keep it off you just get used to it, then it's not any harder and becomes less of a brag.
I don't think FAOff is intrinsically any harder than FAOn, but it does require training the brain to think about flight differently and it does require training a fresh set of muscle memory to go along with that. Whereas a lot of people will have flown flight sims before, or have expectations of how a flight sim works, so FAOn feels more "natural" because you already have the logic and some of the muscle memory for it.
Yes I absolutely agree. My mindset comes from MANY years of playing flight sims and other flight games that control how FA-ON behaves. I have tons of experience in that flight model, so it just makes sense for it to be my main mode when playing ED. But like I said, when I fly combat, I toggle it on and off plenty depending on what I need. I just don't see the need to have it exclusively OFF.

What I don't like is when other folks come into it and start saying that FA-ON is bad and I should feel bad (not that you said that)
 
fun with fa off landing and other non combat flying is here same important as dogfighting. this is NOT about pvp and never was also about your gid gud
What's the point discussing about FA Off in non-combat situations at all? I mean, whether one learns it or not. I know some Cmdrs who fly 100 % FA Off with HOTAS and did never complain about anything. :eek: Even with standard equipment like T16000 or so, besides not being 16 year olds with 15.5 years of digital lifestyle.

Personally, I tried and failed, but I also happened to see a commercial from 2018 about self-driving "Tesla" cars, so I thought, why not use FA On for parking in 33 - Oh - Something? ;)

EDIT: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/pvp-is-a-joke.550207/post-8580851
 
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What's the point discussing about FA Off in non-combat situations at all? I mean, whether one learns it or not. I know some Cmdrs who fly 100 % FA Off with HOTAS and did never complain about anything. :eek: Even with standard equipment like T16000 or so, besides not being 16 year olds with 15.5 years of digital lifestyle.

Personally, I tried and failed, but I also happened to see a commercial from 2018 about self-driving "Tesla" cars, so I thought, why not use FA On for parking in 33 - Oh - Something? ;)

EDIT: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/pvp-is-a-joke.550207/post-8580851
Cos it's useful outside combat too?
FAoff isn't just for pewpew. ;)

In the context of the thread tho - quite right - s'about aiming and handy tools for them that want/need em. Things did get all-encompassing somewhat! :D
 
Cos it's useful outside combat too?
FAoff isn't just for pewpew. ;)

In the context of the thread tho - quite right - s'about aiming and handy tools for them that want/need em. Things did get all-encompassing somewhat! :D
I'm standard method for landing these days is to Boost towards the landing pad then use FA OFF to turn around so I'm facing the correct way. Saves alot of time.
 
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