Why Aiming in FA OFF with a Stick is a huge disadvantage

As a non-PvPer, are there tournaments or meetups that have been recorded, and Win/Loss records taken of HOTAS players vs. M&KB? Legit curious. Because some people in here are saying "it's more accurate for YOU, but not for me".
There have been tournaments but there isn't those kind of statistics. I wouldn't dispute the claim that has been made that most PvPers use m&k, but I also know Cmdrs that use HOTAS that are excellent. One of the main things that made me put my HOTAS away was desk real estate.

There are two parts to this argument though.

1. How relative mouse works - There are some really odd claims about this in the OP and subsequent posts that are demonstrably wrong.
2. A request for adding some elements of FAon to FAoff for HOTAS.

Issue 1: we are at stalemate with. Reasoned explanation hasn't helped.
Issue 2: I don't see the need for it but I think that if it is optional and if giving some FAon advantage is matched with reducing some FAoff advantage it could work.

I also don't think FDev will have much interest in playing around with what is, in my opinion, the best flight model of any space game because a few people want it to be easier when they are using FAoff.
 
As a non-PvPer, are there tournaments or meetups that have been recorded, and Win/Loss records taken of HOTAS players vs. M&KB? Legit curious. Because some people in here are saying "it's more accurate for YOU, but not for me".

But in my opinion if you always lose 9/10 matches with it, then one method is clearly superior and it stops being in the realm of subjectivity, and moves to objective mathematical fact about speed/accuracy of aim.

Again, I don't know if such record keeping exists or if there have been any player set up tournaments where this has been tested. But to me it's less about subjectivity and more about actual records and numbers.
The most recent tournament held was the RoA Liga. It didn't represent all squadrons but the winning team - NATO, consisting of L'Intouchable, Qoryl Qrygg, Lesof and Toruide - is arguable the strongest wing in competitive/tournament style PvP in the game atm.
L'Intouchable - keyboard and mouse, uses relative mouse on one axis but not both. Up until the start of this year, L'In was flying without relative mouse at all.
Qoryl Qrygg - stick and keyboard.
Lesof - keyboard and mouse with relative mouse set to ~10% (so not full force relative mouse). Up until recently, Lesof was flying without relative mouse because he doesn't understand how to set up his bindings. So he flew for months without relative mouse thinking he had it on, and still got to the point of being one of the strongest PvPers in a matter of months.
Toruide - flies with a joystick, though I'm not certain whether he has a throttle or keyboard for his left hand.

I pointed this out in this post, linking to a fight they had against Prism (another squadron which can field one of the strongest wings in the PvP scene as well.) In that fight their opponents were:
Jazod and Yamato - I believe both keyboard and mouse with relative on both axes.
Walkingdead - gamepad.
Captin Pelley - HOTAS.

This is the video I linked to, it's from Lesof's perspective. At the time Lesof was flying without relative mouse:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SamhV70fvjE


I was told my evidence was invalid as a contribution by Fuego, for this reason:
you are taking an small number of top pvp players in the game, and even with this small number most of them use k&m, I repeat, take about the top 200, or even 100 top, and about 90% use m&k.
Despite repeatedly asking for evidence about the figures regarding "90%" of the top 200/100 PvPers in the game being KB&M, I'm yet to be provided with a source of that statistic. It's worth noting that "most of them use K&M" is flat wrong - 50% of the people in the fight use KB&M: half, not most.

Another thing I've asked for proof on, repeatedly, and been flat ignored about.
 
Hold up. Are there even 100 proper PvPers in the game?
That are regularly active, 2/3 nights a week with PvP as their main activity? Probably not. 100 people that log in at least one evening a week and do some PvP to some extent/level - probably. But spread that between gankers/griefers/power players/1v1mebros/pirates/lawful enforcers/tournament style wing fights and suddenly the numbers look a lot thinner in practical application.
 
That are regularly active, 2/3 nights a week with PvP as their main activity? Probably not. 100 people that log in at least one evening a week and do some PvP to some extent/level - probably. But spread that between gankers/griefers/power players/1v1mebros/pirates/lawful enforcers/tournament style wing fights and suddenly the numbers look a lot thinner in practical application.
Cool, that was my feeling on the matter too.

Follow up question: are there 200 players that know which end of a gun goes bang?
 
Thank you - I have no dog in this fight, especially regarding the argument of HOW relative mouse works - looking in from the outside I was more interested in the actual records and results when M&KB face off against HOTAS players. Thanks for the info!
PvP combat in this game is much more about awareness, strategy, positioning and timing. Fine aiming is the final point at which, if all these come together, you get the hit - but tbh the primary damage dealers are PAs and rails which only require you to be on target at the exact moment of the burst at which damage goes out.
Regardless of how your fine motor skills are and precision aiming is - positioning and timing will be the biggest factors in landing the shot with these weapons.

Because of this we can argue until we're blue in the face about the mechanical differences between a mouse and a stick, whether or not one of these tools has a substantial advantage over the other and whether or not relative mouse implements an additional counterforce to stabilise momentum beyond player input in FAOff. But then a console scrub on a gamepad that put the practice in and has squibbly control over their rotations but really good positioning and pip management will give the both of us a 2v1 spanking that will make us depressed about logging back into the game for a month.
 
Let's hope not. I don't know much about PvP combat, but that would seriously mess up PvP racing imo ;)
sanderling we also dont want a change in the flight model. a static rotation for newtonien translation (yes we all know its kinda newtonien i will use the term from now on nevertheless) would not change the flight model at all.
 
sanderling we also dont want a change in the flight model. a static rotation for newtonien translation (yes we all know its kinda newtonien i will use the term from now on nevertheless) would not change the flight model at all.
It might not change the physics model, but it certainly changes the flight model, which, in the game we have, couples these two aspects of flight together inextricably.
 
sanderling we also dont want a change in the flight model. a static rotation for newtonien translation (yes we all know its kinda newtonien i will use the term from now on nevertheless) would not change the flight model at all.
As long as it's an option dude, I got no issue with it. I personally wouldn't wanna fly with it, cos I like my rotations free and fast ;)
I know you don't mean for it to replace the existing FAoff approach, so I'm not spitting nails, teeth, fur and venom :D
 
a static rotation for newtonien translation (yes we all know its kinda newtonien i will use the term from now on nevertheless)
I don't understand what this means, you can't have a static rotation.

I do understand that English isn't your native language and I am not trying to be a about that, I just think this could do with some more explanation to avoid confusion.
 
I don't understand what this means, you can't have a static rotation.

I do understand that English isn't your native language and I am not trying to be a about that, I just think this could do with some more explanation to avoid confusion.
I think he just means that the rotation would stop when you stopped input, so it'd go static. Like FA on now.
 
It might not change the physics model, but it certainly changes the flight model, which, in the game we have, couples these two aspects of flight together inextricably.
morbad thats an important aspect. from my point of view a change of the rotation does not affect the flight model.
as we see it in mouse rotation.
why do you think the flight model would be effected when the "rotational assist mode" would be introduced as option.
 
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I think he just means that the rotation would stop when you stopped input, so it'd go static. Like FA on now.
exactly this as it was also suggested from some participants in this thread

i dont see personally why this should change the fight model at all. espacially when it is an additional option.
but maybe i miss something.
 
I think he just means that the rotation would stop when you stopped input, so it'd go static. Like FA on now.
Ok, I get that. Thanks.

Funnily enough I don't use the mouse for rotation, I use the keyboard and you could easily use a hat on the Throttle of a HOTAs to work in exactly the same way.
 
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