Whatever happened to "You will" towards a multitude of features promised in the kickstarter, Mr Braben?

Do you really not understand that the majority of the people who wanted space legs wanted them PRIMARILY FOR ship interiors?

Its literally less effort than the whole fps crap we got. Its the natural first step and, especially since it had been promised, people took it as a given if space legs were to be a thing. loe and behold, in a game where you never leave the seat of your ship, save to get into the seat of a ship with wheels, when you finally get to stretch your legs... the one thing you can't do is explore the ship; the one thing that draws people to a space ship game. The one thing you've been trapped on your entire life playing this game.
Why would people assume that space legs meant going up to a "secret black market dealer", standing right next to a guard, happily shouting away about how he needs someone to commit crimes for him? Why would people assume that it meant a crappy, jank as hell, babies first FPS? Ship interiors was understood as a given, stated REPEATEDLY, with the inclusion of legs.

I'm not saying its not cool, it IS cool that there is something to do on foot... i guess. But honestly... I know how often FDEV listens to player feedback and adjusts or changes weapons and balance.. and if I wanted to play a shooter I would go play a compitent one instead of what we have.

People, myself included, are upset because they hyped this sh!7 up to be a big deal and finally giving us what we've been asking for for the better part of a decade... only to find out that they were just being coy about it till they already had all the suckers money.
Sure you have legs now, heres a bunch of unoptomized crap you didnt ask for, and heres a grind worse than a ship to engineer it... the monkeys paw curls another finger.

I dont want to hear a damn thing about, "well it might be fun the first few times but then what, then its just boring." People play this game and star citizen because they are infatuated with space ships, space ship combat, and exploration. That is the reason 99.9% of the people pull the trigger on either of these games, and I dare you to try and prove me otherwise. If exploring different colour pallette swaps of spherical heightmaps is fun and engaging for some people for the thousandth time, how much more engaging would it be for the main pull of the game? On that note, why dont you tell me how engaging it is to stare at a countdown timer just so you can hit a button when it says 7 seconds? Might as well call microwave cooking a AAA game at that point huh. But we do it in this game... and constantly. If you have a decent amount of time in the game you might have done it a number of times with 5 or even 6 digits! Hell that IS SOME PEOPLES (traders, passenger carriers) ENTIRE GAMEPLAY LOOP besides board flipping! How about the witchspace loading screen? How about the gondola ride down into the outfitting station for your ship? How about driving around in a circle in a car picking up literal trash?
Lets not even go into the fact that what they added is far more time consuming and monotonous. Sure it makes the world more immersive and believable, but nobody picked up this game and said "Wow! I cant wait to see how good the bartenders voice acting is!" or anything of the sort.

The other common argument goes something like, "well theres no meaningful gameplay to it." Please see the above post for examples of things in the game with no meaningful gameplay loop. To address this point seperately though, lets see... beyond... hmm... making more money by selling fish tanks and random bullsh!7 to put in your captains cabin as incentive for fdev... and... beyond selling more copies in the first place...
All we have to do is look at what we have now. As I said earlier, if I wanted to play a competent shooter, I'd play one. But you know what no other game has? Pirates who try to steal my cargo. I could flee, fight, or be a tricky bastad and pretend to submit, only to fight through my ship with my trusty rifle, dodging around pillars and the SRV/Fighters in the bay, killing them all, before counter boarding their ship, making off with some loot of my own and then setting their ship to self destruct before sprinting back to my frigate. Hell this would give true traders that fly type 6 and type 9s something cool to do if they wanted to. You could even throw in random events like: ship gravity malfunction, fires, having to hack a robot trying to mess with your powerplant, sneaking onto their ship and sabatoging it due to a strong enemy spawn, etc. And just so you know, space legs already work in 0g.
You could board a direlict ship and see what happened to it... OH NO! Aliens! No wait that was just the shimmer of a cryopod in stasis, lets get him safely back to the ship and take him to the search and rescue hospital on a station. WOW! Thats already a cooler rank to elite than just scanning plants. You could have it rank up when helping people escape burning stations too! Sort of a first responder type deal.
Go talk to those pesky passengers. Oh no! A stow away/assasin/whatever. Use your imagination.
You could have an engineering room where you can craft things, put on different suits or guns, hell you know what, give players the ability to craft or upgrade up to... lets say tier 3 engineering mods that are pinned! you could put a small timer on it or whatever and have a big 3d fab start going to town.
Man, and if you combine this with multicrew, the options just get better and better. Why dont you land, drop a friend in a 2 person SRV, deploy another in a fighter for surgical strikes, and then you yourself provide overwatch with rolling thunder style missile strikes while trying to fight off incoming dropships, with the fighter having to choose whether or not to fight air or ground!
I could go on, and many others have, but I won't.
You can't tell me that that doesn't sound amazing.
But you know what, I would be happy with just being able to walk around my ship for now.

I'm happy that they added what they did, and I hope they'll improve on it, but you gotta remember who we're dealing with here. People have been begging for weapons rebalance, weapon platforms, and other REALLY SIMPLE things for 5-6 years now, with nothing to show for it. I have very rudementary coding and modeling experience, but even I, in a day or two max, could code in a large hardpoint module that is just a small box that two small harpoints go on. It would take even less time to look at the data for weapons use, choice of engineering, and the parameters of weapons, and tweak the numbers some.
But this is FDev. I had thought they abandonded the game itself, thankfully not, but thats generally their track record. Squad missions, Multicrew, CQC, hell even the base game, theres bugs from 2015 still in here(!), have all been left in a dismal state, never to be touched again once FDev deems that they are in a minimal viable state.
What do you think people that understand this think is going to happen to space legs?
Hell, I'm one of those people, so I'll tell you. We think that this is more or less all we're ever gunna get.

TL;DR: To get so close to what we've been asking for, and promised, since before release, to only be met with a fade to black transition (armstrong moment!) and a, frankly subpar, first person shooter experience that was MORE EFFORT and NO ONE was asking for... along with even more time wasting, a cutters worth of bugs, abysmal performance (to the point of being unplayable for most), DOWNGRADES to several areas visually... can you blame people for being a little... unhappy?
THIS! ALL! JUST...THIS!
 
That's not the question, it's the fact they have now said it isn't something they're working on after way back juicing us up by stating all ship have been designed with interiors in mind!
Yes, it is the question. You weren't "promised" anything. They had a list of features that were going to be available at launch, that was the only thing they were obligated to deliver. Everything else was specifically said IN THAT VIDEO was going to be "down the line". They then explicitly said interiors weren't coming in Odyssey. Now they say they aren't working on them because they are busy working on Odyssey. People need to quit reading into things and look at what has actually been said. Show me one place where a dev said there would be interiors by Q2 of 2021. I don't care what you hoped for, show me where they gave a deadline and missed it. That's what a promise is.
 
What a tool. It's the fact people invested some serious cash into kickstarter because of what was essentially promised as part of the development plan and now we're being told many years later it isn't anything they intend to implement. You must be awfully sore with all the Odyssey backlash when you're so used to licking Frontier's boots that they're now so dirty. Awww.

Your last line is beneath contempt.

Actually who am I kidding, so's the rest of it.

Do you really not understand the fact that in the course of eight years, not everything that someone plans to do might actually get done?
 
I confess 8 years+ later, I'm a bit disappointed that the original dream I was sold isn't what I got. I understand goals change, but since Horizons it feels like the further development of Elite was on the backburner and the crap actually released (Power Play, Fleet Carriers, various other stuff through the years) isn't what I was originally told was coming. Horizons set the bar high in 2015, but here we are almost 6 years post that release and we're still wandering around barren planets, only now they've got generic bases. Somewhere along the road, we lost the way.
Fleet carriers where actually part of the early promises. Just like the content of Odyssey. As long as they keep adding stuff they talked about during Kickstarter I don't see the problem. Sure, it's possible that you don't like how things get implemented, but to me that's a different discussion.
 
Fleet carriers where actually part of the early promises. Just like the content of Odyssey. As long as they keep adding stuff they talked about during Kickstarter I don't see the problem. Sure, it's possible that you don't like how things get implemented, but to me that's a different discussion.
I seriously don't remember fleet carriers (or large player ships like them) being in the early discussions and for a long time were considered to be dreams by some players. My point is the timescales involved. The way DB spoke during the video about how these things were complicated and needed work and thus wouldn't be in the initial release (walking, more detailed planets) did leave you with the impression that they'd be coming at some point in a future release. It took us 1 year to get to Horizons and a further SIX years for the next major update. SIX. F***ING YEARS. And ultimately that added FPS, and a bit of colour to the sky. Walking around your ship (promised) isn't even on the roadmap, never mind more detailed living, breathing worlds.

You could lawyer-speak it, 'Well, he did say they were coming, but he didn't say WHEN. Haha!'

I've been a fan of Elite and ultimately won't consider the game wasted (how could I?) but I do feel betrayed as it's become clear through the years that ED really just paved the way to FDEV becoming its own publishing house and having done its job it's a low priority item.
 
I seriously don't remember fleet carriers (or large player ships like them) being in the early discussions and for a long time were considered to be dreams by some players. My point is the timescales involved. The way DB spoke during the video about how these things were complicated and needed work and thus wouldn't be in the initial release (walking, more detailed planets) did leave you with the impression that they'd be coming at some point in a future release. It took us 1 year to get to Horizons and a further SIX years for the next major update. SIX. F***ING YEARS. And ultimately that added FPS, and a bit of colour to the sky. Walking around your ship (promised) isn't even on the roadmap, never mind more detailed living, breathing worlds.

You could lawyer-speak it, 'Well, he did say they were coming, but he didn't say WHEN. Haha!'

I've been a fan of Elite and ultimately won't consider the game wasted (how could I?) but I do feel betrayed as it's become clear through the years that ED really just paved the way to FDEV becoming its own publishing house and having done its job it's a low priority item.
Fleet carriers were definitely part of the early discussion, it was part of the roadmap in newsletter #38 or something. I can look it up if it's important to you.

Regarding the time scale, David Braben told us about all the stuff he would like to see in game and he said he has enough ideas to keep developing the game for more than 10 years.

Now we have:
  • airless planets
  • fleet carriers
  • walking around
  • tenuous atmospheres

And a few thousand minor and major features / changes since release in 2014. What's still missing are full atmospheric planets, earth likes and ship interiors. So far they have pretty much done what they told us about. I'd say that's not bad considering they started development almost 10 years ago.
 
You could lawyer-speak it, 'Well, he did say they were coming, but he didn't say WHEN. Haha!'
That's not lawyer-speak, that's being a sane adult. That's recognizing that plans change and things don't always go according to plan. If I tell you, "I'll try to be there" and then don't show up for some reason are you going to fly off the handle and hold a grudge about it for the next six years?

As far as I'm aware, they delivered everything that was actually promised to be in the launch originally. Everything else was clearly said to be, "down the line". And if you look at what they have done there is a very clear path of progression towards a fully fleshed out game. First they added landable planets, then they added the ability to walk on those planets. I mean, you don't need to code to see how those layers stack on top of each other. Maybe, just maybe, they are working on mechanics first and saving fluff for the final stages.
 
As far as I'm aware, they delivered everything that was actually promised to be in the launch originally.

Well no, they announced shortly before release that the infamous offline mode wouldn't be in, which was huge at the time and might have been received better if they told us when they knew (instead of shortly before launch). And given everything discussed in the DDF, many many people were convinced that they were holding things back for launch because the game felt so empty. They weren't.

What's annoying me (and a lot of other people) is that given the sheer length of time since launch (which is 6+ years now) the development obviously slowed down post-Horizons.
 
Btw, don't misunderstand the anger in these posts in this thread, it's an anger born out of disappointment that stems from love. I do feel as though my patience is being tested.
 
Btw, don't misunderstand the anger in these posts in this thread, it's an anger born out of disappointment that stems from love. I do feel as though my patience is being tested.
I'm sure it is. But that doesn't make them liars. They can't possibly be beholden to the timeframe in your head.

Believe me, I was an SC backer... I know what con artists look like. Fdev ain't that.
 
I suspect the main holdback on giving us ship interiors is the design decision made way back at launch, to make our ships highly configurable internally. Yes, there's "core modules" that cannot be moved, but over half the space in every ship - the vast bulk of the space in most ships - is given over to "optional internal modules". These optional modules are configurable and rearrangeable however we want, within the very broad limits of module size.

This means that there isn't going to be just one "Cobra III" interior. For example, there'll need to be a Cobra III interior model with two Size 3 cargo bays and a 4C shield in the three Size 4 slots, because that's how the Cobra III comes equipped when it leaves the factory. There'll also need to be an interior model with a size 4 cargo bay, a Size 4 SRV bay, and a size 4A shield in those slots, because that's how my own Cobra III is configured. For everyone else's personal configurations for the Cobra III, those 3 size 4 slots will also have to be accommodated.

The SRV hangar is going to need to go directly above the SRV loading bay and can't be way down the far end of the ship, but the Size 2 slots also have to be next to the SRV loading bay, because it's also possible to fit a Size 2 SRV bay to a ship. Likewise, all the cargo bays will need to be connected to the cargo bay door - even in configurations where every single internal slot is taken up by a cargo bay, because that's an allowed configuration and there are no doubt people who equip a Cobra III that way. And on bigger ships, all the Size 7, Size 6 and Size 5 slots need to be next to the fighter launch tube, because they can all take fighter bays.

So the whole thing is going to need to be modular, and modular in such a way that it works for every possible module configuration in every single ship. And while it may be true that "ship internals have been thought about" for a very long time, I simply don't think there's a way to represent all the variations that our ships can be - three dimensions simply isn't enough to make everything fit, every time. So you'd have to not have these modules enter-able, or visible. Would people be content with "walking about our ships" if most of the space within our ships was locked off, inaccessable and invisible behind bulkheads, with only the "non-variable" components of the ship like the crew quarters and airlock able to be visited?

It would be much easier to give us ship interiors in a game where every module is a "core module" - the cargo bay on the Krait II is 64 tonnes, and it goes here, for example. That would mean just one model is necessary for each ship, and the artists can go to town making it look pretty, instead of spending time checking every possible permutation and combination of module installation to make sure it doesn't look awful in most of them.

Now, they could make their job a lot easier by slashing the installation options for each module slot. But at this stage of the game, I don't think removing the flexibility of being able to put whatever module you want, wherever you want, would be very popular with the playerbase.
Nice point, but you could just insert another fixed slot inside every ship just for that. Call it "Ship interior module" or "cabinet backyard"..., with some alternative versions and prices to choose from: 1C peasant/2B commander/3A admiral... and a walkable generic gangway connection to the hatch. We could just watch our other installed modules from there. Pet cat included pls
 
Nice point, but you could just insert another fixed slot inside every ship just for that. Call it "Ship interior module" or "cabinet backyard"..., with some alternative versions and prices to choose from: 1C peasant/2B commander/3A admiral... and a walkable generic gangway connection to the hatch. We could just watch our other installed modules from there. Pet cat included pls
They'd have to add another one for the SRV... probably fighter bays too.

Honestly, the only way to really make it work would be to completely rethink the way ships work. Make the shield a core module, put an SRV bay on every ship, move all the scanners and limpet controllers to the ship computer. Basically leave the cargo hold open for either cargo or passenger cabins. Then instead of different size slots you would have X amount of floorspace to fill with various size racks and cabins.
 
They'd have to add another one for the SRV... probably fighter bays too.

Honestly, the only way to really make it work would be to completely rethink the way ships work. Make the shield a core module, put an SRV bay on every ship, move all the scanners and limpet controllers to the ship computer. Basically leave the cargo hold open for either cargo or passenger cabins. Then instead of different size slots you would have X amount of floorspace to fill with various size racks and cabins.

See here:

Source: https://youtu.be/bjApqmIALd8


His other video (Episode 1) has the calculations.
 
I suspect the main holdback on giving us ship interiors is the design decision made way back at launch, to make our ships highly configurable internally. Yes, there's "core modules" that cannot be moved, but over half the space in every ship - the vast bulk of the space in most ships - is given over to "optional internal modules". These optional modules are configurable and rearrangeable however we want, within the very broad limits of module size.

This means that there isn't going to be just one "Cobra III" interior. For example, there'll need to be a Cobra III interior model with two Size 3 cargo bays and a 4C shield in the three Size 4 slots, because that's how the Cobra III comes equipped when it leaves the factory. There'll also need to be an interior model with a size 4 cargo bay, a Size 4 SRV bay, and a size 4A shield in those slots, because that's how my own Cobra III is configured. For everyone else's personal configurations for the Cobra III, those 3 size 4 slots will also have to be accommodated.

The SRV hangar is going to need to go directly above the SRV loading bay and can't be way down the far end of the ship, but the Size 2 slots also have to be next to the SRV loading bay, because it's also possible to fit a Size 2 SRV bay to a ship. Likewise, all the cargo bays will need to be connected to the cargo bay door - even in configurations where every single internal slot is taken up by a cargo bay, because that's an allowed configuration and there are no doubt people who equip a Cobra III that way. And on bigger ships, all the Size 7, Size 6 and Size 5 slots need to be next to the fighter launch tube, because they can all take fighter bays.

So the whole thing is going to need to be modular, and modular in such a way that it works for every possible module configuration in every single ship. And while it may be true that "ship internals have been thought about" for a very long time, I simply don't think there's a way to represent all the variations that our ships can be - three dimensions simply isn't enough to make everything fit, every time. So you'd have to not have these modules enter-able, or visible. Would people be content with "walking about our ships" if most of the space within our ships was locked off, inaccessable and invisible behind bulkheads, with only the "non-variable" components of the ship like the crew quarters and airlock able to be visited?

It would be much easier to give us ship interiors in a game where every module is a "core module" - the cargo bay on the Krait II is 64 tonnes, and it goes here, for example. That would mean just one model is necessary for each ship, and the artists can go to town making it look pretty, instead of spending time checking every possible permutation and combination of module installation to make sure it doesn't look awful in most of them.

Now, they could make their job a lot easier by slashing the installation options for each module slot. But at this stage of the game, I don't think removing the flexibility of being able to put whatever module you want, wherever you want, would be very popular with the playerbase.
I thought FRJ did some great tin foil hat work on how all the internal modules could be laid out while still being interchangeable, seems feasible to me:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxmwEjBKlEY&t=149s
 
I thought FRJ did some great tin foil hat work on how all the internal modules could be laid out while still being interchangeable, seems feasible to me:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxmwEjBKlEY&t=149s
I'm not really expecting them to all be accessible internally anyway, and to be massaged into place. As Frontier has said, "it's a game," in similar contexts.
On the other hand, crawling around ducts and whatnot Star Trek style might be kind of fun too.
 
I'm not really expecting them to all be accessible internally anyway, and to be massaged into place. As Frontier has said, "it's a game," in similar contexts.
On the other hand, crawling around ducts and whatnot Star Trek style might be kind of fun too.
Yeah, as I said further up, I'm not going to be measuring the size of the internal slots, especially the bigger ones.

The other thing I really wanted to see was a proper damage model, which they did start on the conda, so why didn't that get finished? It's certainly relevant now that we can walk all over our ships, and there's plenty of fun to be had in repairing our beloved ships.
 
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