Small personal Capital ships for small teams please?

Funnily enough, I read it again, and nothing new stood out.
Yet you claimed I was saying things I wasn't.
which you omitted from that quote dissection:
That's because that is 100% subjective and as such there is no way to argue an exact credit value of anything in this game so there is no point.

Its why I argued when you said basically all they are good for is hauling something that is objectively false
 
A billion, as well.

A fully outfitted cutter is a fully-fledged piece of equipment. Depending on the loadout, it's capable of undertaking many, if not all activities within the game including mining, combat, salvage, exploration... or undertaking singular activities to a very high degree.

By contrast, an FC is a logistic support craft. It's not capable in itself of undertaking any activity and therefore, in the context of the game, is fairly useless in that regard. The sum worth of all the functions and capabilities of an FC bascially make it a glorified hauling vessel, not worth more than about a billion.

If you want to go down the path of RL comparisons, FCs are not analogous to Aircraft Carriers; which by contrast feature way more capability than an FC goes near... where an FC is more comparable to a cargo freighter, or a hundreds-of-thousands road train, while the aforementioned cutter is more akin to, say, an Abrams tank, which has a multi-million pricetag.

The only reason 5 billion was ever accepted as a price was because people prostrated themselves before broken Borann mining situation at the time FCs were in the works.
I don't think this assertion is fully describes the complexity of the situation. Yes, a cutter can do all those things, but no single cutter can do them all well at once. Not to mention engineering materials and such.

In terms of time and effort, a fully outfitted cutter probably takes 3-4b worth of time, and you need multiple to fulfill every niche, bringing your total time investment probably over that of a fleet carrier.
 
Yet you claimed I was saying things I wasn't.

That's because that is 100% subjective and as such there is no way to argue an exact credit value of anything in this game so there is no point.

Its why I argued when you said basically all they are good for is hauling something that is objectively false
lol... now who's claiming things that were never said.
By contrast, an FC is a logistic support craft. It's not capable in itself of undertaking any activity and therefore, in the context of the game, is fairly useless in that regard. The sum worth of all the functions and capabilities of an FC bascially make it a glorified hauling vessel, not worth more than about a billion.
I called it a glorified hauler. That doesn't mean it just does hauling, and it doesn't preclude being able to do other things. My argument continues to be that there is not 5b worth of value in those other features.

You're clutching at straws here mate. I maintain, these are not worth 5b, and any sense that they are is backed by an inflated sense of value fuelled by broken cash cows and a screwed game economy, evidenced by your claim that you just happened to get the 5b in two weeks of doing something you enjoyed. And that's an objective assessment of the economy.
I don't think this assertion is fully describes the complexity of the situation. Yes, a cutter can do all those things, but no single cutter can do them all well at once. Not to mention engineering materials and such.
Honestly, that's just plain wrong. I have a Krait MK2 that is a multipurpose fit. The only things I cannot do with it are:
  • Wing Assassinations
  • Threat 5+ Pirate activity sites
  • Mining missions
  • Tissue sampling

Everything else, High CZs, exploration, salvage, cargo hauling, smuggling, trade, hijack missions it can do as optimally as a dedicated fit. That someone in a dedicated fit couldn't do it equally as well in that Krait speaks more of the pilot than anything else.
 
lol... now who's claiming things that were never said.

I called it a glorified hauler. That doesn't mean it just does hauling, and it doesn't preclude being able to do other things. My argument continues to be that there is not 5b worth of value in those other features.

You're clutching at straws here mate. I maintain, these are not worth 5b, and any sense that they are is backed by an inflated sense of value fuelled by broken cash cows and a screwed game economy, evidenced by your claim that you just happened to get the 5b in two weeks of doing something you enjoyed. And that's an objective assessment of the economy.

Honestly, that's just plain wrong. I have a Krait MK2 that is a multipurpose fit. The only things I cannot do with it are:
  • Wing Assassinations
  • Threat 5+ Pirate activity sites
  • Mining missions
  • Tissue sampling

Everything else, High CZs, exploration, salvage, cargo hauling, smuggling, trade, hijack missions it can do as optimally as a dedicated fit. That someone in a dedicated fit couldn't do it equally as well in that Krait speaks more of the pilot than anything else.

I'm sorry, but I sincerely doubt it can both haul cargo, explore, and fight as well as a dedicated fit of any of those things.
 
I'm sorry, but I sincerely doubt it can both haul cargo, explore, and fight as well as a dedicated fit of any of those things.
Well that's unfortunate. I guess you still have a lot to learn 🤷‍♀️

What makes you think it couldn't? Exploration just needs a fuel scoop, maybe an SRV (heavy emphasis, bigger jump range != better at exploration, unless you count ignoring as many systems as possible as exploration[1]), most combat is "fire weapons and don't get hit yourself", and cargo hauling is about internals.

I pick krait over a large vessel for hauling because 66% of the universe is outposts, and so going large rules out a vast majority of haul mission targets. And considering most missions cap out around 180t, and i carry around 190t and the most you can get is about 264t in a medium ship, you'll never fit more than one mission fully in. In that circumstance, I'll take "can take one cargo mission and drive assassinations" over "can take maybe two cargo missions".

[1] the only time jump range matters significantly is space tourism, getting to the known poi as quick as possible.

That's just the tip of the iceberg...
 
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rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
"Small personal Capital ships for small teams please?"

Do you mean Cutter and Corvette? They are small, personal, but also massive, like proper capital ships, but smaller, and they can fit a small team of 4 players AND 2 small fighters AND a ground vehicle AND turreted weapons.

Seems like a perfect fit for your request.
 
Well that's unfortunate. I guess you still have a lot to learn 🤷‍♀️

What makes you think it couldn't? Exploration just needs a fuel scoop, maybe an SRV (heavy emphasis, bigger jump range != better at exploration, unless you count ignoring as many systems as possible as exploration[1]), most combat is "fire weapons and don't get hit yourself", and cargo hauling is about internals.

I pick krait over a large vessel for hauling because 66% of the universe is outposts, and so going large rules out a vast majority of haul mission targets. And considering most missions cap out around 180t, and i carry around 190t and the most you can get is about 264t in a medium ship, you'll never fit more than one mission fully in. In that circumstance, I'll take "can take one cargo mission and drive assassinations" over "can take maybe two cargo missions".

[1] the only time jump range matters significantly is space tourism, getting to the known poi as quick as possible.

That's just the tip of the iceberg...

Well, of course the whole world looks red if you define it by requiring rose-tinted glasses.

I guarantee that in any subject you care to suggest, my purpose-built build can beat your multi-purpose build 100% of the time. I suggest you not make your case for cheaper carriers based on something that anyone can disprove with 10 minutes of testing.

I'm not against the concept of miniature, more focused capital ships - heck, I made a big suggestion about exactly that sort of thing months ago - but the idea that a ship which cutters can dock at should be cheaper than a cutter is just very, very silly.

And I think you know that. You know that fdev will never make such a thing. I know it. So let's just save a whole bunch of time and stop wasting everyone's time arguing about it, eh?
 
I guarantee that in any subject you care to suggest, my purpose-built build can beat your multi-purpose build 100% of the time. I suggest you not make your case for cheaper carriers based on something that anyone can disprove with 10 minutes of testing.
Which is exactly why I stipulated earlier what the build wasn't good at doing. It's all well and good to say "Well in theoretical terms, you're wrong". I'd agree with that, but in any practical application within the game (which is why I stipulated what that build could and couldn't do) the impact of that enhancement is minimal.

Will a combat fit Anaconda wipe a target 5% faster than my multipurpose krait? Probably. Does it warrant the additional expense and investment, including the opportunity cost of not being able to do other activities? Not really.

And that's exactly my case for FCs, and what I've been saying all along. Do they offer advantages? Yes. Do they offer 5b worth of advantages? No.

Of course FD will "Never make such a thing" as you say... I've seen the way FD operates for many years now, and their game quality will continue to suffer for it.
 
You shouldn't get the most expensive things in the game without trying.
I don't quite follow you. If being triple elite qualifies as 'not even trying', then what are we talking about?
The problem is the bland repetition, not the fact you need to put in any effort at all.
Its a fundamental issue with FD. This review of JWE2 puts it very well:

good strategy doesn’t spring from the number of interactions you have with a system you’re in charge of, but from the level of dilemma and brain-gnaw each interaction demands. In Crusader Kings 3, for example, you don’t really have to interact with the game at all. It’ll do its own bleak medieval thing, and it’s up to you to decide where and how to interact, if you want to increase your level of influence on the simulation. Those decisions tend to be really interesting. On the other end of the scale, look at something like fire station placement in an old-school city builder - nothing interesting happens if you do it, but if you don’t do it, your city will be on fire. It’s a binary mitigation of a fail-state, challenging little except your ability to maintain a to-do list.

Jurassic World Evolution 2 is full of this stuff. Ranger stations need to be periodically button-clicked to refuel their vehicles; scientists need to be button-clicked to rest, so they don’t go Full Nedry. Dinosaurs will suddenly get the flu, requiring a medical truck to be button-clicked to their location for treatment. None of these things present fulcrums for decision; you’re never going to think “hang on a second, what if I don’t give the T-Rex its medicine?”, or consider the strategic potential of a “no fuel in the jeeps” policy. You just have to stop what you’re doing and click a button, or the game punishes you.

The overall sensation is of trying to eat a hotdog, but having a clown smack it out of your hand every couple of bites, forcing you to pick it up off the floor. I found myself constantly jolted out of my focus, then forgetting what I was doing beforehand. And that’s a big shame, given how forward planning, and incremental work towards big projects, are such huge parts of the joy to be found in city/park-builder games.

FD's basic design philosophy is 'repetitive tedium'. Its 'do the boring thing over and over or dont get the candy.". Thats it. There is no creativity, no excitement, no wonder or joy in anything FD ever designs. Its great art direction and audio production trying to detract you from the fact FD doesnt know how to make good gameplay. Its such a painful contrast with other games, where the usual game design centers around the question "is this fun?". With FD, that just isn't a consideration, ever. On reddit there was a discussion about the latest CG, and who had the biggest advantage. The general argument was that the traders had it better than the data-guys, because the data guys had to relog over and over for hours on end whereas the trading guys could automate their stuff using ADC and SC so they could watch movies while they were grinding.

Its a perfectly pathetic illustration of just how poor the game design of ED is. Its why I cant get excited about Update9 or whatever anymore. I am sure the new SRV will look great and sound cool. I am sure it'll work. I am also sure there is no actual fun gameplay designed around it in any meaningful sense, and it'll just be dumped inside the game. Maybe if you scan a thousand random things or click on a million other things you can get some random outrageous buff that completely throws any semblence of balance or notion of any design consideration out the window. Its really all you can expect.

Its such a fundamental part of every single FD game that it cannot be because of a random designer or developer. Its the core of FD that has absolutely no vision beyond incremental Kaizen to maximize profits. It works, I suppose, but its transparently hollow.
 
Which is exactly why I stipulated earlier what the build wasn't good at doing. It's all well and good to say "Well in theoretical terms, you're wrong". I'd agree with that, but in any practical application within the game (which is why I stipulated what that build could and couldn't do) the impact of that enhancement is minimal.

That's not true at all, though. In practical terms, tiny percentage increases can often make massive differences in what is and is not achievable. For example, my previous build of T10 could not kill Imperial Captains. I then swapped one weapon, increasing my DPS by less than 10%, and now, I can consistently kill imperial captains. From a pure percentages standpoint, the improvement was minimal, but from a functional perspective, I have increased what I am capable of doing exponentially.

Your build will not be able to kill an imperial captain. Your build will not be able to explore the edges of the galaxy. Your build will not be able to finish some missions in a single run.

That's why your overly simplistic viewpoint is not functional when it comes to analyzing the utility of something like a fleet carrier. They allow you to do things that otherwise are simply impossible, and the value of that is incalculable.


I don't quite follow you. If being triple elite qualifies as 'not even trying', then what are we talking about?

Getting elite in both trade and exploration are both extremely easy, honestly. You can get them in like one day.

Combat is another matter, but given that at best it takes you ~3000 elite kills to get to combat elite, and nowadays each kill gives you an average of probably 500k, that alone should give you around half of your total needed credits, even assuming you're not taking any missions to compliment them. If you do, it'll take a fraction of that.

The game wasn't terribly well balanced in the past, I'll grant you that, but many of those problems no longer exist.


FD's basic design philosophy is 'repetitive tedium'. Its 'do the boring thing over and over or dont get the candy.". Thats it. There is no creativity, no excitement, no wonder or joy in anything FD ever designs. Its great art direction and audio production trying to detract you from the fact FD doesnt know how to make good gameplay. Its such a painful contrast with other games, where the usual game design centers around the question "is this fun?". With FD, that just isn't a consideration, ever. On reddit there was a discussion about the latest CG, and who had the biggest advantage. The general argument was that the traders had it better than the data-guys, because the data guys had to relog over and over for hours on end whereas the trading guys could automate their stuff using ADC and SC so they could watch movies while they were grinding.

Its a perfectly pathetic illustration of just how poor the game design of ED is. Its why I cant get excited about Update9 or whatever anymore. I am sure the new SRV will look great and sound cool. I am sure it'll work. I am also sure there is no actual fun gameplay designed around it in any meaningful sense, and it'll just be dumped inside the game. Maybe if you scan a thousand random things or click on a million other things you can get some random outrageous buff that completely throws any semblence of balance or notion of any design consideration out the window. Its really all you can expect.

Its such a fundamental part of every single FD game that it cannot be because of a random designer or developer. Its the core of FD that has absolutely no vision beyond incremental Kaizen to maximize profits. It works, I suppose, but its transparently hollow.

I think this is a serious overstatement. I'll admit it has ELEMENTS of truth, but by the same standard, you could make the same claims about, say, Skyrim, or World of Warcraft, or Age of Empires. Does it make Age of Empires a better game to need to place houses every single game? You might say no, but the experts will disagree with you(mostly).

Ultimately, investment of effort is a component of any game. The important fact isn't the fact that effort is required, but rather that said effort remains enjoyable. Again, this isn't something Fdev does perfectly, but that should lead you to a different conclusion than 'effort is bad'.
 
The sum worth of all the functions and capabilities of an FC bascially make it a glorified hauling vessel,

lol... now who's claiming things that were never said.


I called it a glorified hauler.


Don't try to reword it now, you didn't just call it a glorified hauler you said the sum of its parts made it a glorified hauler.

Once again your personal view on its worth is irrelevant.
 
Don't try to reword it now, you didn't just call it a glorified hauler you said the sum of its parts made it a glorified hauler.
I have no idea what you're babbling about at this point. Are you unfamiliar with the use of the term "glorified" here? There's no difference between those two statements.
Once again your personal view on its worth is irrelevant.
As are yours then too? Because you dont get to call my opinions irrelevant while continuing to spout your own.

That's the thing with "value". It's subjective personal opinion, unless something carries intrinsic value.

All your justifications for the FC being 5b are features carrying no intrinsic value, and are open to interpretation.

My "opinion" is based on the objective fact that cash cows and the screwed state of the economy have warped the idea of value in this game. On the one hand we've got people who claim 5b is no sweat, and others claiming that even getting a billion is a struggle. Funnily enough, the different perspectives are aligned with whether you frequent activities which pay too highly or not.

Bottom line, economy is screwed and there's no common understanding of relative value. That's a fact, and why I'll happily stick to the FC not being worth more than a billion.

You can disagree, that's fine. You can't disagree because you think my opinion is irrelevant without discounting your own.
 
The bland repetition aspect is because the most expensive things do not come from "trying".

I will absolutely stand firm that the activities which require the most planning, effort and diversity of activity are also the least rewarding, and I'll gladly die on that hill. Ever heard of someone getting a cool 5b doing:
  • Scenarios
  • "Mysterious Stranger" contact chains
  • Thargoid/Other Xeno Tissue Sampling
  • Salvaging
  • Megaship Raiding
  • Anything Odyssey related
  • Smuggling
  • Supporting Anarchy factions
  • Exploiting combinations of stateful BGS effects (emphasis on combinations)
  • USS and surface POI exploring
  • Anything guardian related
  • Threat 5/6/7 Pirate Activity sites (where the most challenging and threatening pirates reside)

...Of course not. Funnily enough, some of these did exist, and they got nerfed, despite having less income than modern cash-cows like
  • Massacre Stacking/Wing Stack variants
  • Road to riches exploration
  • Mining
  • Basic Cargo Hauls
  • AX Interceptor ganks

... all basic activities. The "challenge" isn't in complexity, it's just in volume of grind, and that's trashbin design.
Well said
 
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