General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

Typically being called a hypocrite is considered a personal attack. I don't really care, I just thought it worth mentioning in case the mods were paying attention. As far as the veracity of the claim...I provided an article showing a point about mankind harming the environment the same as many others have done and continue to do so, but your jasonbarron derangement syndrome is so severe that you can't even lay off when I'm literally agreeing with you. You just have to keep attacking. Interesting in that it shows that you don't want to have a discussion but just trade snipes.

Here's an interesting article I found about the changing eco system in the Gulf of Mexico:
https://www.foxnews.com/science/the-voracious-and-invasive-lionfish-is-taking-over-the-atlantic-heres-why
No, it is a description, a personal attack is when I use your persona as a sandbang and not adress what the person said. The rest is just a complain about calling you out for incorrect or contradictory things you've said but you can always put me on ignore if you so wish.
 
No, it is a description, a personal attack is when I use your persona as a sandbang and not adress what the person said. The rest is just a complain about calling you out for incorrect or contradictory things you've said but you can always put me on ignore if you so wish.
No, your responses to me are almost entirely based on personal attacks. I can't think of one where you entered into a debate without drawing personal comments. And no, I never put people on ignore, especially people who disagree to the point of obsession with me. It's more likely going to be the other way around. Personally I think it's funny, I just want it on record how you and a few others live and post by a double standard.

On topic: I wonder if this has anything to do with toxins being leached into the ocean from mainland agriculture?
https://www.foxnews.com/science/maine-rare-two-toned-lobster
 
No, your responses to me are almost entirely based on personal attacks. I can't think of one where you entered into a debate without drawing personal comments. And no, I never put people on ignore, especially people who disagree to the point of obsession with me. It's more likely going to be the other way around. Personally I think it's funny, I just want it on record how you and a few others live and post by a double standard.

On topic: I wonder if this has anything to do with toxins being leached into the ocean from mainland agriculture?
https://www.foxnews.com/science/maine-rare-two-toned-lobster
I'm rough on my responses but they are certainly not based almost on insults (pretty sure this isn't the first time you wrongly claim I don't adress what is said) and I'm interested in seeing that double standard you talk about.
 
Your region surely ... In this case prepare you to receive a massive immigration that will rot your comfortable existence.

You still have not understood that this is a global problem.
You still have not understood that this is a global problem with no realistic fix outside of Internet finger pointing and virtue signalling; adaptability is going to be key no matter which side of the aisle you're on.
 
Correct, isn't it good to anticipate then instead of adapting till the damage is done?
See, I don't so much fail to address your points as much as shake my head that you fail to grasp mine. I mean, it's like you read a completely different post and responded to that. This damage is happening, no matter what you think. All you and Patrick and a few others are doing is virtue signalling; while you condemn America, plenty of other environmentally impacting countries that could give a fig about your concept of climate crisis and will continue doing what they do. Even if you could convince America to go full Socialist and obliterate their economy, which is unlikely, the problem is still going to be out there and it's still going to be severe and there's still almost certainly going to be radical changes coming.

Look at France, Patrick's homeland which one would presume is free from environmental sin if you can extrapolate from the monumental soapbox he adores climbing up on; that's why I shared the story about his country's toxic sludge. No country is free from pollution and some are just ramping up. Change is coming and adaptability is going to be the bottom line.
 
See, I don't so much fail to address your points as much as shake my head that you fail to grasp mine. I mean, it's like you read a completely different post and responded to that. This damage is happening, no matter what you think. All you and Patrick and a few others are doing is virtue signalling; while you condemn America, plenty of other environmentally impacting countries that could give a fig about your concept of climate crisis and will continue doing what they do. Even if you could convince America to go full Socialist and obliterate their economy, which is unlikely, the problem is still going to be out there and it's still going to be severe and there's still almost certainly going to be radical changes coming.

Look at France, Patrick's homeland which one would presume is free from environmental sin if you can extrapolate from the monumental soapbox he adores climbing up on; that's why I shared the story about his country's toxic sludge. No country is free from pollution and some are just ramping up. Change is coming and adaptability is going to be the bottom line.
1. We already talked about the inevitability of climate change and how we affect it, hint, we can still do something.
2. I don't recall condemning the US in particular though it is the second highest CO2 emitter and a country with a very large population, only China and India have a larger population. Because of this and their influece, it holds a big responsability. I also remind you that the US is not on the Paris Agreement.
3. You assume you need to become a socialist (which in of itself isn't bad but for the sake of argument lets say it is) country to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution. Then again, it's not like socialist countries were and/or are much cleaner than others.
4. You also assume that the economy will necessarily suffer from restrictions in pollution including CO2.
5. I'm sure Patrick hasn't said France is free of guilt, feel free to prove me wrong.
6. Adaptability can come prior to change, ever heard from prophylaxis?

3 & 4 are wrong assumptions BTW.
 

BongoBaggins

Volunteer Moderator
In response to a previous reply: Yes the moderators are awake - or at least I am, it's 4am - but I thought I'd give you all a chance to return to civil debate rather than intervene.
If you could continue being respectful while disagreeing, that would be great, thanks
 
'Plastic alternatives may worsen marine pollution, MPs warn':


Compostable and biodegradable plastics could add to marine pollution because there is no infrastructure in place to make sure they break down correctly, a committee of MPs has warned.

The use of alternatives to plastic are being adopted by many food and drink companies, takeaway coffee venues, cafes and retailers. But experts giving evidence to MPs on the environment, food and rural affairs committee said the infrastructure required to deal with the new packaging was not in place and there was a lack of consumer understanding about these alternatives.

Much of the compostable packaging produced for the UK market only degrades in industrial composting facilities, rather than in home composting – but not all is sent to these facilities.

Environmental NGOs told the committee that the rapid introduction of such alternatives could actually increase plastic pollution.

Juliet Phillips, of the Environmental Investigation Agency, said: “If a biodegradable cup gets into the sea, it could pose just as much of a problem to marine life as a conventional plastic cup.”

Green Alliance – a coalition of NGOs – said there was evidence that the term biodegradable made consumers think it was fine to discard it into the environment, which would make pollution on land and at sea even worse.

Neil Parish, chair of the Commons select committee, said: “In the backlash against plastic, other materials are being increasingly used as substitutes in food and drink packaging.

“We are concerned that such actions are being taken without proper consideration of wider environmental consequences, such as higher carbon emissions.

“Compostable plastics have been introduced without the right infrastructure or consumer understanding to manage compostable waste.”

Keep Britain Tidy said “the drive to introduce bioplastics, biodegradable plastics and compostable plastics is being done with limited emphasis on explaining the purpose of these materials to the public or consideration of whether they are in fact better from an environmental perspective than the plastic packaging they replace”.

The committee, in a report on plastic food and drink packaging published on Thursday, said the government should focus on reducing the use of plastic packaging rather than replacing it with other materials.
That last part i have to agree with, reduce the amount of plastic packaging, and in many cases it is an easy choice, for example the organic bananas i buy always seem to come in a clear plastic bag(!). A banana (or group of them) come in one of natures best packages already, you don't need plastic on-top of that imho. There are lots of examples like that where we can simply reduce all the plastic we use unnecessarily etc.
 
'Plastic alternatives may worsen marine pollution, MPs warn':




That last part i have to agree with, reduce the amount of plastic packaging, and in many cases it is an easy choice, for example the organic bananas i buy always seem to come in a clear plastic bag(!). A banana (or group of them) come in one of natures best packages already, you don't need plastic on-top of that imho. There are lots of examples like that where we can simply reduce all the plastic we use unnecessarily etc.
indeed..... we have a lot of totally unnecessary waste. (my pet hate when you go to a restaurant or hotel and all the sauces and jams etc are in tiny little individually packaged pots.... not only does that waste a lot of the actual contents it produces a lot of packaging. Just give me a bottle of HP and a jar of jam.. if need be these can even be refilled when needed from large catering packs.

I am not sure it would work now adays but back in the day when i was a lad (so about 30-35 years ago) i remember when my mum went shopping in the bakery section there were giant bins with scoops. you would grab a bag or a pot (which was reusable) and just scoop out the flour / sugar / rice / semolina / nuts / raisins what ever the goods were and weigh them..... hardly any waste packaging and much cheaper too.

this was back in the 80s when no one was even savvy about the environment but was all about saving money (the 2 can go together).

of course this relies on people to have basic hygene standards as well as parents to actually do their job and parent and make sure little johnny keeps his stinky snotty mits out of it, which having seen what some parents let their kids do at the pick and mix at the supermarket (and lets be honest some parents are not much better but i am going off on an angry tangent here ;) ) may be totally unrealistic.... (which is a very sad thing to say)

edit i just googled and found this. dunno if it took off but it seems it was tried again a few years back


edit 2 its still going
 
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indeed..... we have a lot of totally unnecessary waste. (my pet hate when you go to a restaurant or hotel and all the sauces and jams etc are in tiny little individually packaged pots.... not only does that waste a lot of the actual contents it produces a lot of packaging. Just give me a bottle of HP and a jar of jam.. if need be these can even be refilled when needed from large catering packs.

I am not sure it would work now adays but back in the day when i was a lad (so about 30-35 years ago) i remember when my mum went shopping in the bakery section there were giant bins with scoops. you would grab a bag or a pot (which was reusable) and just scoop out the flour / sugar / rice / semolina / nuts / raisins what ever the goods were and weigh them..... hardly any waste packaging and much cheaper too.

this was back in the 80s when no one was even savvy about the environment but was all about saving money (the 2 can go together).

of course this relies on people to have basic hygene standards as well as parents to actually do their job and parent and make sure little johnny keeps his stinky snotty mits out of it, which having seen what some parents let their kids do at the pick and mix at the supermarket (and lets be honest some parents are not much better but i am going off on an angry tangent here ;) ) may be totally unrealistic.... (which is a very sad thing to say)

edit i just googled and found this. dunno if it took off but it seems it was tried again a few years back


edit 2 its still going
When my wife and I do our family shopping, we try to get as much "bulk" unpackaged items as possible. Those plastic dispensers you shared the pic of are pretty common over here now, which eliminates the worry of non-hygienic shoppers contaminating products.
 
Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles. Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??

PS I am in agreement with recycling from an efficiency of resources point of view.

EDIT: Wikipedia

The North Magnetic Pole moves over time due to magnetic changes in Earth's core.[1] In 2001, it was determined by the Geological Survey of Canada to lie west of Ellesmere Island in northern Canada at 81.3°N 110.8°W.[2] It was situated at 83.1°N 117.8°W in 2005. In 2009, while still situated within the Canadian Arctic at 84.9°N 131.0°W,[3] it was moving toward Russia at between 55 and 60 kilometres (34 and 37 mi) per year.[4] As of 2019, the pole is projected to have moved beyond the Canadian Arctic to 86.448°N 175.346°E.[5][3]

The Canadian government has made several measurements, which show that the North Magnetic Pole is moving continually northwestward. In 2001, an expedition located the pole at 81.3°N 110.8°W. In 2007, the latest survey found the pole at 83.95°N 120.72°W.[13] During the 20th century it moved 1100 km, and since 1970 its rate of motion has accelerated from 9 km/year to approximately 52 km/year (2001–2007 average
 
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Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles.
Do you mean historical human record, or geological record?

Geomagnetic reversals occur relatively frequently on geological time scales, but the one we may to be heading into now would be the first in human history. Last full reversal was 780k years ago, while the last excursion was 40k years ago.

Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??
Climate effects from the period of reduced magnetic field strength will likely be minimal, and almost certainly not remotely comparable to what we're doing.
 
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Do you mean historical human record, or geological record?

Geomagnetic reversals occur relatively frequently on geological time scales, but the one we appear to be heading into now would be the first in human history. Last full reversal was 780k years ago.



Climate effects from the period of reduced magnetic field strength will likely be minimal, and almost certainly not remotely comparable to what we're doing.
Agreed, but it's no coincidence that the shift in poles is accelerating and in my life time there is, a noticeable shift in weather (some extreme) patterns. Of course over the lifetime of the planet this could just be a blip (as was the Ice age). I am convinced that if we have damaged the planet mother nature will ultimately repair it with or without our assistance. It is possible that extreme weather (more rain) is mother nature repairing at the moment (trees grow faster etc..)

Recycling is a great idea for resource efficiency but lack of it, is unlikely to kill the planet; us maybe, but not the planet.
 
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Do you have any links to journals/articles on the subject?

Agreed, but it's no coincidence that the shift in poles is accelerating and in my life time there is, a noticeable shift in weather (some extreme) patterns.
No, that is very likely coincidental.

An unexpectedly rapid and severe reduction in magnetic field strength could result in a lot of damage to satellites and power grids, but wouldn't have much effect on climate or weather.

There are certainly some hypothetical mechanisms for significant climatic interaction, but the general consensus is currently that it's not likely to be a significant factor in observed climate change.
 
I am convinced that if we have damaged the planet mother nature will ultimately repair it with or without our assistance.
can't argue otherwise, but why are you so sure?

pollution rate isn't going to change anytime soon. it's a big fuss now, but what is really done about it? it's getting worse, and i expect it to get much worse in the next decades. it will probably have a high cost in human life, that will prompt for far reaching changes in the civilization and society that survives. if those will be enough to self regulate and reach an equilibrium is anybody's guess. in such a scenario i wonder how you could rule out a runaway effect past some tipping point that makes complex life impossible at all ... maybe even 'forever'.

then it all boils down on what you consider 'mother nature'. do bacteria count?
 
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