Odyssey's Biggest Weakness: It lacks depth

A good say there is:

"Whoever you are - be a GOOD one!"

Right now the Odyssey is:
Lacking social component (No option for proximity chat, not possible to sit/stand around the existing furniture.)
Lacking in exploration options in interiors. (All of them are same in planning, similar in design and boring in the long run.)
Lacking in immersion during ship/on foot interactions. (Too much teleportation - players are spawning out of thin air, feels like Destiny.)
Lacking in depth as a Shooter (Boring weapons, tedious combat with long TTK and NO skill requirements.)
Lacking in overall immersion. (Pizza boxes on Zero G stations, civilian personnel immune to deadly temperatures, low ranked civilians can take FEW shots to the naked head etc...)

Arguments like "Oh, it`s a space sim add-on in Alpha!" are irrelevant because if Odyssey turns out as mediocre or bad in all mentioned areas, the bulk of the players will turn away towards other projects, FDev will loose profit and it will be NO Elite in few years from now.
 
ED at launch was exactly the same; it was a shallow experience that once you pass the initial wow factor given by landing on stations and listen the sounds; it would reveal itself as very dull.
It takes time to get something engaging, even because many people look for different things in a game; this is not COD so clearly the action is dosed in a different way. At times ED is a zen game; when all you want to do is to fly around scanning systems out of the bubble; but there are other space games that give you the action; if you feel like ED is missing something.

It will take them 4-5 years to make things more interesting; so I am not really expecting anything flashy and the current Odyssey experience is in line with the "excitement" you get from ED and Horizons after all.
 
It will take them 4-5 years to make things more interesting; so I am not really expecting anything flashy and the current Odyssey experience is in line with the "excitement" you get from ED and Horizons after all.
Do you really think Elite will be around in 4-5 years if Odyssey isn't a success? (OK - It will be around, but it probably won't be getting more DLC/expansions...)
 
Do you really think Elite will be around in 4-5 years if Odyssey isn't a success? (OK - It will be around, but it probably won't be getting more DLC/expansions...)
What I think is irrelevant; since I can't see the future; and even if I could, there is not much I could do.
ED is a cloud based game, so unless the devs allow it to be used offline for solo play; once the game is dead, there won't be any way to play it anyway.

They have a roadmap for ED; and while many people do not find the game interesting enough; there is a solid base that play this game even if it would have mickey mouse in it as main enemy; otherwise they would already EOL it. There is no company on this planet that keep things going unless there is profit margin; so to go back to the original point; the game is not depending on Odyssey success; but from sales in general; so as long as there is profit, the show goes on. Once Frontier see no more profit from ED, they will wrap things up and move on.

Either way; I just enjoy it for what it is; it will never be what I want it to be; so I am forced to play different games because each game has part of what I want; but for many; this is their main game, so happy for them.
 
What I think is irrelevant; since I can't see the future; and even if I could, there is not much I could do.
ED is a cloud based game, so unless the devs allow it to be used offline for solo play; once the game is dead, there won't be any way to play it anyway.
Back in the day, prior to release, there was a commitment that, the game would be open-sourced (or otherwise made available) if the time ever came to switch off the servers. Then again there was an original commitment to single player too...
 
ED at launch was exactly the same; it was a shallow experience that once you pass the initial wow factor given by landing on stations and listen the sounds; it would reveal itself as very dull.
It takes time to get something engaging, even because many people look for different things in a game; this is not COD so clearly the action is dosed in a different way. At times ED is a zen game; when all you want to do is to fly around scanning systems out of the bubble; but there are other space games that give you the action; if you feel like ED is missing something.

It will take them 4-5 years to make things more interesting; so I am not really expecting anything flashy and the current Odyssey experience is in line with the "excitement" you get from ED and Horizons after all.
The Player base of Elite is rich and diverse.

Some are here for the meditative good views, some are for the combat, some are for making friends and embarking on long expeditions, some want to have fun with fast PvP...

In its dawn, Elite was a Kickstarter funded Tec Demo, today Odyssey is a commercial product.
FDev need to produce a GOOD product, not a mediocre experience which kind of tries to please everyone, but is not good in ANY of taken directions.
 
I agree with all your points. I think my biggest issue with all of these problems however is the buying price. 45.49CAD is pretty expensive for a DLC...and that is what this feels like right now and with the few additions to come. I think that amount of money feels more like an "Expansion", where the game receives a huge new chunk of gameplay for us to enjoy. While it is currently fun, it doesnt take long for you to realize that once you do a few missions they are more or less recycled versions of each other...

While I understand the game received some rather significant graphical changes. The FPS does lack depth, though like you say it has potential...in fact it has a mountain of potential, and I hope FDev uses this ALPHA properly instead of it being more of a phased beta (my biggest worry).
 
The Player base of Elite is rich and diverse.

Indeed it is and this is the reason i think ED will still be here after Odyssey hype goes off.
Even if combat will be shallow and skill less there are plenty that are playing for many other reasons (combat focused players are quite a minority)

ED did pretty well before Odyssey and it can do well on the same player base, despite all the things you consider shallow in post #101
 
It takes time to get something engaging, even because many people look for different things in a game; this is not COD so clearly the action is dosed in a different way. At times ED is a zen game; when all you want to do is to fly around scanning systems out of the bubble; but there are other space games that give you the action; if you feel like ED is missing something
This here...this contradicts what ED:Odyssey is though. Look at the gameplay they have provided (I know the explorer phase is coming, but I dont expect much more that 1 or two steps more than we already have with SRV surface discoveries) its almost always go here-fight some guys-go home. AS OP pointed out even the space repairman missions force you into combat sometimes, and so do the stealthy steal things, or assassination missions....its lazy game design. Instead of even trying to implement anything resembling a stealth system, they just default every mission to having you fight a dozen+ guys. I shouldn't have to expect to fight a small army on repair jobs...unless its specifically listed as "Sweep+Clear+Repair" mission...


Telling people to go play something else that scratches their CQC/FPS itch after they've purchased an "expansion" to ED that is advertised to do that very thing is silly.
 
Just a few ideas that would make gameplay more interesting, with what I think (not an expert on development) would be relatively easy to implement

Maverick suit is designed to be a "Scavenger/repairman suit" yet you end up fighting NPCs longer and more often than you find your self scavenging things/repairing something... restoring power and then turning off atmospheric systems on all the buildings every time. When it could be that after you've restored power each building needs a diagnostics check, maybe one needs the atmosphere turned off, but another needs you to replace some fuses...or repair a power distributor....or haslost connection with the main power terminal so you need to redirect it or find an alternate source. Scavenging? Where? I see pick up all the crap thats not nailed down...I'd hardly call that scavenger gameplay...since we basically do that in every aspect of the game anyways.

Dominator suit is designed as a combat suit. Its the only one that is actually useful in a combat situation so its fine...not much depth can be added to the suit itself...besides engineering stuff. Its the only one that really doesn't require a change...cause its designed around a relatively simple concept.

What i said about the Artemis suit above...its advertised as an explorer suit...but what it sounds like is a glorified tool belt. I imagine it will be better suited for harsh environments...but the only other thing it gives is another single tool that is exclusive to that suit. Obviously I can't suggest much for exploration with space legs as we've yet to see its implementation, but I'm sure I can come back to this post and add later.

Basically they've designed the space legs update like your player is a ship. When in reality it makes no sense for you to carry 3 different suits in your "ship locker" just so you can have access to a single tool. It makes far more sense that each suit is better suited for a specific task; Dominator has two primaries (good) and better shields and resistances; Maverick has larger power reserves so using the arc cutter and powering up/draining systems is easier; Artemis has better environmental resistances so your power draw on life support is FAR lower (maybe a solar charging system that you can deploy while stationary) maybe you NEED to have it for specific environments or to collect certain materials. Then make you buy each tool and allow you to equip them onto "slots" in your belt.
Engineering would be useful for your suits, as you can upgrade specific things to suit your playstyle (like your ships), weapons and tools should require attachments that you can purchase/manuracture/ a bit of both but are far less common. Instead of giving you an infinity locker, you would need a module on your ship to store your suits/weapons/tools.

A presented now, and with the information we have it certainly lacks depth...I think there is plenty of reason for some of us to be concerned with what is here...

I'll add that I am enjoying the gameplay now, but I can see it getting stale relatively quickly. Give me a reason to get out of my ship and do things, not just copy paste ship gameplay loops on a smaller scale.
 
Just a few ideas that would make gameplay more interesting, with what I think (not an expert on development) would be relatively easy to implement

Maverick suit is designed to be a "Scavenger/repairman suit" yet you end up fighting NPCs longer and more often than you find your self scavenging things/repairing something... restoring power and then turning off atmospheric systems on all the buildings every time. When it could be that after you've restored power each building needs a diagnostics check, maybe one needs the atmosphere turned off, but another needs you to replace some fuses...or repair a power distributor....or haslost connection with the main power terminal so you need to redirect it or find an alternate source. Scavenging? Where? I see pick up all the crap thats not nailed down...I'd hardly call that scavenger gameplay...since we basically do that in every aspect of the game anyways.

Dominator suit is designed as a combat suit. Its the only one that is actually useful in a combat situation so its fine...not much depth can be added to the suit itself...besides engineering stuff. Its the only one that really doesn't require a change...cause its designed around a relatively simple concept.

What i said about the Artemis suit above...its advertised as an explorer suit...but what it sounds like is a glorified tool belt. I imagine it will be better suited for harsh environments...but the only other thing it gives is another single tool that is exclusive to that suit. Obviously I can't suggest much for exploration with space legs as we've yet to see its implementation, but I'm sure I can come back to this post and add later.

Basically they've designed the space legs update like your player is a ship. When in reality it makes no sense for you to carry 3 different suits in your "ship locker" just so you can have access to a single tool. It makes far more sense that each suit is better suited for a specific task; Dominator has two primaries (good) and better shields and resistances; Maverick has larger power reserves so using the arc cutter and powering up/draining systems is easier; Artemis has better environmental resistances so your power draw on life support is FAR lower (maybe a solar charging system that you can deploy while stationary) maybe you NEED to have it for specific environments or to collect certain materials. Then make you buy each tool and allow you to equip them onto "slots" in your belt.
Engineering would be useful for your suits, as you can upgrade specific things to suit your playstyle (like your ships), weapons and tools should require attachments that you can purchase/manuracture/ a bit of both but are far less common. Instead of giving you an infinity locker, you would need a module on your ship to store your suits/weapons/tools.

A presented now, and with the information we have it certainly lacks depth...I think there is plenty of reason for some of us to be concerned with what is here...

I'll add that I am enjoying the gameplay now, but I can see it getting stale relatively quickly. Give me a reason to get out of my ship and do things, not just copy paste ship gameplay loops on a smaller scale.
Agree to 100%!

Suits should be good for different tasks, but not LOCKED on single one specialization!

Genetic Analyzer and ARC Cutter should be purchasable as sidearms!
 
Agree to 100%!

Suits should be good for different tasks, but not LOCKED on single one specialization!

Genetic Analyzer and ARC Cutter should be purchasable as sidearms!
Lets call them tertiary slots, since I think sidearm is reserved for combat. Like the Dominator may only get two/three tertiary slots. Explorer gets 3/4. maverick gets 4-5 (basically enough for every tool...but gets no primary weapon slot. Only a sidearm/secondary. The other 2 tools should be included in that pool as well...if they want us to grind for upgrade/parts they can also make it so their secondary functions arent available by default

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I realize jsut how much is missing from our First Person gameplay...with a CAD$45.49 price tag no less...+extra for Alpha access Considering just how much is available to us in our ships even if we're only looking at the base game without horizons
(I've only been playing for a month or so and haven't really experienced any Horizons content outside of some early engineering stuff)
 
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Agree to 100%!

Suits should be good for different tasks, but not LOCKED on single one specialization!

Genetic Analyzer and ARC Cutter should be purchasable as sidearms!
Alternately, if the suits are going to be locked to a single task, there should be more variety of suits and their statistics, for those task - a choice - not just "one combat suit", "one exploration suit" etc. Ditto weapons - there's not really too much choice or variety there either.
 
Alternately, if the suits are going to be locked to a single task, there should be more variety of suits and their statistics, for those task - a choice - not just "one combat suit", "one exploration suit" etc.
Sure this is a great idea if FDev prefers the current system. I still think its a little bit silly...especially considering there are a handful of ships that can do everything.
 
I can't think of any open world FPS that offers much more freedom and choice than Odessey does. It has more than Farcry does from memory.
Which game offers more?
Most FPS are designed to lead to a fight and the NPCs' AI is calibrated to react in an exclusively aggressive way (this is a flaw that was pointed out at the time on Far Cry 2 before this approach was considered as the one expected de facto by the players). The freedom then consists essentially in offering a map that allows you to choose the approach that suits you best to kill all NPC.
In the case of Odyssey, some of the missions are obviously not intended to lead to a fight. So, the AI must have different levels of response (e.g. fine, confiscation of weapons, tools or stolen item, expulsion, arrest with incapacitating or non-lethal materials (flashbang, IEM, tazer or even a grenade that will spray foam on us that will more or less hinder our movements),... weapons should be in most case the last resort if we engage in combat ourselves or if we ignore an ultimatum that is impossible to miss. Not the first and only resort.
We can also be surprised that there are only heavily armed soldiers when we could expect to see guards without shields and lethal weapons or policemen with only handguns...
On our side, we have no way to avoid the fight. We have no way to apologize if we don't immediately realize that we are being controlled, we have no way to lay down our arms before the security starts fighting,... we can just suffer and fight back. And we also have no way to simply neutralize an NPC or hide a body.
These are all examples that FDev could have added and that would have given a depth that no FPS, to my knowledge, offers.
 
Sure this is a great idea if FDev prefers the current system. I still think its a little bit silly...especially considering there are a handful of ships that can do everything.
I'd accept suits with very similar stats, just with cosmetic/camoflage changes, just to add some variety. (I'm also wondering what happens with cosmetics we may have already purchased - will these be applied to commander's flight suits in-station?)
 
The Player base of Elite is rich and diverse.

Some are here for the meditative good views, some are for the combat, some are for making friends and embarking on long expeditions, some want to have fun with fast PvP...

In its dawn, Elite was a Kickstarter funded Tec Demo, today Odyssey is a commercial product.
FDev need to produce a GOOD product, not a mediocre experience which kind of tries to please everyone, but is not good in ANY of taken directions.

True, that apply to all games though. But what matter is the majority; and as demonstrated by Frontier all over these years; the majority is in agreement with their choices, which is why they keep going without making big changes.

ED was a kickstarter aimed at old Elite players; it offered exactly the same experience with updated graphics, with plans to add planets eventually, and first person gameplay. Many years later, this is what you have: an updated version of Elite. It is not a game inspired by Elite and made like Star Citizen or X series; it is a plain remake with some ideas added to spice things up; and this is what kickstarters were asking, so this is what they made.

Fast forward 2 expansions later; Frontier is still following its original idea: make an Elite updated version without change the nature of the game; so things are exactly as they were before. I do not have the sales number handy, but Frontier would exist even without Elite Dangerous; although less profitable.

Look around yourself; in the past 5-10 years almost any AAA game coming out is a trainwreck; this is the new age of game development; and Frontier is not an exception. Long lasting bugs are still there, new bugs will be added to the pool, and things move forward; as they did since launch.
At least Frontier make an Alpha that is 2 months, not 10 years like Star Citizen; so can't really complain much. Is not the ultimate space game? Of course; but at least you can play it now.
 
This here...this contradicts what ED:Odyssey is though. Look at the gameplay they have provided (I know the explorer phase is coming, but I dont expect much more that 1 or two steps more than we already have with SRV surface discoveries) its almost always go here-fight some guys-go home. AS OP pointed out even the space repairman missions force you into combat sometimes, and so do the stealthy steal things, or assassination missions....its lazy game design. Instead of even trying to implement anything resembling a stealth system, they just default every mission to having you fight a dozen+ guys. I shouldn't have to expect to fight a small army on repair jobs...unless its specifically listed as "Sweep+Clear+Repair" mission...


Telling people to go play something else that scratches their CQC/FPS itch after they've purchased an "expansion" to ED that is advertised to do that very thing is silly.
Why does it contraddicts what ED:O is? Elite is a sim first of all; and the FPS is more akin to Arma for example, than Call of Duty. Clearly you are in for the combat; same as ship combat...it is one of the pillars of Elite after all (combat, trade, explore, curse); so it is not that different from ship gameplay. At least there are variants like non-combat based missions (reactivate a base), which I wish there were also in the ship portion of the game (be a space mechanic, go help stations in need and such), and courier missions. Eventually I am looking forward to salvaging and exploration gameplay, since I assume there won't be on-foot mining, since it is not really feasible nor the reward would be much, so better not even waste time with it.

Also keep in mind that everything need to be balanced; this is a first pass at things, so it is expected to see some changes to the current missions. As Odyssey is now, I can't see how it is going to even remotely compare to any FPS game that is mainly a FPS game. I would rather play over and over Call of Duty Infinite warfare; as space shooter, or Halo games; instead of Odyssey; simply because they are different games... Odyssey is not a shooter FPS; Cyberpunk is, COD is. If Frontier could make a good mix between FPS and gameplay like Hitman, I would be not happy but super happy; since most of my time spent in Elite is not spent in combat.
 
Just a few ideas that would make gameplay more interesting, with what I think (not an expert on development) would be relatively easy to implement

Maverick suit is designed to be a "Scavenger/repairman suit" yet you end up fighting NPCs longer and more often than you find your self scavenging things/repairing something... restoring power and then turning off atmospheric systems on all the buildings every time. When it could be that after you've restored power each building needs a diagnostics check, maybe one needs the atmosphere turned off, but another needs you to replace some fuses...or repair a power distributor....or haslost connection with the main power terminal so you need to redirect it or find an alternate source. Scavenging? Where? I see pick up all the crap thats not nailed down...I'd hardly call that scavenger gameplay...since we basically do that in every aspect of the game anyways.

Dominator suit is designed as a combat suit. Its the only one that is actually useful in a combat situation so its fine...not much depth can be added to the suit itself...besides engineering stuff. Its the only one that really doesn't require a change...cause its designed around a relatively simple concept.

What i said about the Artemis suit above...its advertised as an explorer suit...but what it sounds like is a glorified tool belt. I imagine it will be better suited for harsh environments...but the only other thing it gives is another single tool that is exclusive to that suit. Obviously I can't suggest much for exploration with space legs as we've yet to see its implementation, but I'm sure I can come back to this post and add later.

Basically they've designed the space legs update like your player is a ship. When in reality it makes no sense for you to carry 3 different suits in your "ship locker" just so you can have access to a single tool. It makes far more sense that each suit is better suited for a specific task; Dominator has two primaries (good) and better shields and resistances; Maverick has larger power reserves so using the arc cutter and powering up/draining systems is easier; Artemis has better environmental resistances so your power draw on life support is FAR lower (maybe a solar charging system that you can deploy while stationary) maybe you NEED to have it for specific environments or to collect certain materials. Then make you buy each tool and allow you to equip them onto "slots" in your belt.
Engineering would be useful for your suits, as you can upgrade specific things to suit your playstyle (like your ships), weapons and tools should require attachments that you can purchase/manuracture/ a bit of both but are far less common. Instead of giving you an infinity locker, you would need a module on your ship to store your suits/weapons/tools.

A presented now, and with the information we have it certainly lacks depth...I think there is plenty of reason for some of us to be concerned with what is here...

I'll add that I am enjoying the gameplay now, but I can see it getting stale relatively quickly. Give me a reason to get out of my ship and do things, not just copy paste ship gameplay loops on a smaller scale.
I brought up this very point in a different post. I do not want 3 suit to use 3 tools; I want universal tools and suits that have different stats and slots for different things.

If you have a ship, you can equip it as you wish, as long as you have slots and money; same should be for suits. Buy the base suit, buy the base modules/tools to fit your playstyle and needs and off you go.

Also the suit is not like a ship, because on a ship you can change almost everything, while suits are stuck with their configuration. so in retrospective, it is even more limiting than just have suits "as if they were ships"
 
Most FPS are designed to lead to a fight and the NPCs' AI is calibrated to react in an exclusively aggressive way (this is a flaw that was pointed out at the time on Far Cry 2 before this approach was considered as the one expected de facto by the players). The freedom then consists essentially in offering a map that allows you to choose the approach that suits you best to kill all NPC.
In the case of Odyssey, some of the missions are obviously not intended to lead to a fight. So, the AI must have different levels of response (e.g. fine, confiscation of weapons, tools or stolen item, expulsion, arrest with incapacitating or non-lethal materials (flashbang, IEM, tazer or even a grenade that will spray foam on us that will more or less hinder our movements),... weapons should be in most case the last resort if we engage in combat ourselves or if we ignore an ultimatum that is impossible to miss. Not the first and only resort.
We can also be surprised that there are only heavily armed soldiers when we could expect to see guards without shields and lethal weapons or policemen with only handguns...
On our side, we have no way to avoid the fight. We have no way to apologize if we don't immediately realize that we are being controlled, we have no way to lay down our arms before the security starts fighting,... we can just suffer and fight back. And we also have no way to simply neutralize an NPC or hide a body.
These are all examples that FDev could have added and that would have given a depth that no FPS, to my knowledge, offers.

That is a good way to see it. Which is why I don't see Odyssey as FPS. In a FPS you are going against AI that are there for you to kill mostly; while in a game like Witcher or GTA or Hitman, you have different types of NPC, which react in different ways accordingly to your actions and stand; which is the hard part to program in the end.

Switching states with behavioral trees or other algorithms, does in fact engage the players and give you that feeling of a world that is alive; otherwise if I need to just kill anything on a map; I prefer if we just have the conflict zones that are instances, where you just do that. I don't play Odyssey to do pew pew as an FPS; I want it more akin to a game where the response of NPC is based on my actions and stand with their factions. As such calling Odyssey a FPS is just doing a disservice to Odyssey. And if Frontier is going for the FPS approach; sorry to say that but you really are doing something incoherent and limiting for your player base
 
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