PvP Frontier created PVP gankers. By design.

most gankers are in wings,so realy you dont have much of a chance 3-1,normaly will win,not often you find a lone ganger,and then they jump away when the realize you are fighting back with equal weapons and shields,
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
If we were to remove PVP from the game, we would lose a large subset of gameplay: this impacts more than just the people who enjoy PVP for its own sake, it includes piracy activities, the purpose of groups like iridium wing, etc. It's the same as if we were to remove exploration, or trading. Other players would be adversely impacted by the loss.
Some players would feel the loss, no doubt - others would be able to play co-operatively in a multi-player mode with no population limit without being bothered by those wishing to engage in PvP.... Not everyone who bought the game did so to engage in, or even tolerate, PvP.

Not that I'm suggesting that an existing game feature be removed, of course, unlike those who seek to PvP-gate content to Open who support removing content from players who don't enjoy PvP.
 
I don't agree with you. For example, why don't the ATRs fly in quickly to help in high-security systems?
NPC AI is a complex problem. I think it would negatively impact gameplay if you had ATRs fly in immediately after someone interdicts. And if a noob can be killed in one-two shots, then ATRs flying in after the kill may be ineffective. The ganker has the same tools that other players do to avoid interdiction, and it's unlikely that the AI will be programmed to use tactics like slamming into another ship to cause a FSD reset.

I've always thought it odd that, if I'm carrying some valuable cargo, invariably an NPC will spawn and attempt to interdict me for my "tasty cargo" or similar, but a "ganker" can sit in supercruise in a High Sec system indefinitely without system security batting an eyelid. Sure, the ATR will be dispatched if said "ganker" attacks another ship, but by then it's too late.

If "gankers" in High Sec systems were being chain interdicted by ATR (obviously the ATR's interdiction skills would require buffing to the point where it would be very difficult to evade), then would this be a deterrent to those that hang around in the same systems all day/night looking for easy targets?
Chain interdictions might be more effective- the goal is to annoy the ganker rather than defeat them, since rebuys are arbitrary. If a ganker has to eat a rebuy every time they gain notoriety (Or have to flee system and switch ships), that may be a deterrent, or at least slow down the ganking.

I'm not sure if it's possible to build ATR AI in such a way that it's actually capable of preventing ganking, but maybe it can slow it down. So it's not as effective as blocking gankers, for example. Perhaps half-measures are all we need?
 
Some players would feel the loss, no doubt - others would be able to play co-operatively in a multi-player mode with no population limit without being bothered by those wishing to engage in PvP.... Not everyone who bought the game did so to engage in, or even tolerate, PvP.

Not that I'm suggesting that an existing game feature be removed, of course, unlike those who seek to PvP-gate content to Open who support removing content from players who don't enjoy PvP.
A PvE mode would add to the game experience, not detract from it, to be certain. If I decide to play PvE instead of PvP with you, that doesn't affect you any more than if I decided to play Scrabble instead of ED. However, I could understand an argument against letting players in PvE or other non-PvP modes affect powerplay or community goals, since those are intended to be competitive.

While researching, I did find this article about SDC infiltrating Mobius in order to kill PvE players. I find it interesting how a subset of PvP players took it personally that other players wanted to do PvE and said mean things about it on the forum, and then painted themselves as the good guys for attacking PvE players in a PvE server. That's not too different than someone hacking a peaceful mode/non-PvP server in Minecraft to allow them to kill other players (With access via social engineering instead of modification of the actual code).

(apologies for double post, I didn't see we were on a new page and I thought your response was interesting)
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
A PvE mode would add to the game experience, not detract from it, to be certain. If I decide to play PvE instead of PvP with you, that doesn't affect you any more than if I decided to play Scrabble instead of ED.
Apart from affecting the pan-modal game features, of course - which may have an indirect effect on other players.
However, I could understand an argument against letting players in PvE or other non-PvP modes affect powerplay or community goals, since those are intended to be competitive.
All players affect the shared galaxy state - by design - it's the principle upon which the game was pitched over eight years ago. The debate as to whether that's a feature or a problem to be solved has been ongoing for years. Frontier chose to design their game around every player affecting the galaxy while not requiring any player to engage in PvP (if they don't want to).

That one of the game modes guarantees that the player cannot be shot at by another player and another offers multi-player among selected others, means that "players in PvE or other non-PvP modes affect powerplay or community goals" - and have done since they were introduced. On the announcement of Community Goals being added to the game, Michael Brookes was quite clear that they are for all players, regardless of game mode - just as DBOBE spoke of players in Solo affecting Powerplay in an AMA when Powerplay was released.

Competition, in this game, does not require any player to engage in PvP - apart from in CQC, of course.
While researching, I did find this article about SDC infiltrating Mobius in order to kill PvE players. I find it interesting how a subset of PvP players took it personally that other players wanted to do PvE and said mean things about it on the forum, and then painted themselves as the good guys for attacking PvE players in a PvE server. That's not too different than someone hacking a peaceful mode/non-PvP server in Minecraft to allow them to kill other players (With access via social engineering instead of modification of the actual code).
Some players seem to get really offended by the fact that other players can play the game without them - even though we all bought the same game that offers three game modes, a single shared galaxy state and the ability to switch modes at will. Those who would join threads created by players asking why they were destroyed for no apparent reason to give the sage advice: "git gud or go solo" were, I expect, one of the reasons that the Mobius PvE Private Groups grew in size quite so quickly in the early days of the game. Thankfully Frontier haven't PvP-gated any content to Open - so no-one needs to play among those players.
 
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NPC AI is a complex problem. I think it would negatively impact gameplay if you had ATRs fly in immediately after someone interdicts. And if a noob can be killed in one-two shots, then ATRs flying in after the kill may be ineffective. The ganker has the same tools that other players do to avoid interdiction, and it's unlikely that the AI will be programmed to use tactics like slamming into another ship to cause a FSD reset.



Chain interdictions might be more effective- the goal is to annoy the ganker rather than defeat them, since rebuys are arbitrary. If a ganker has to eat a rebuy every time they gain notoriety (Or have to flee system and switch ships), that may be a deterrent, or at least slow down the ganking.

I'm not sure if it's possible to build ATR AI in such a way that it's actually capable of preventing ganking, but maybe it can slow it down. So it's not as effective as blocking gankers, for example. Perhaps half-measures are all we need?
You forget one thing, the number and class of ATR will depend on the security of the system.
Even if the player is playing in Solo he should think 10 times to kill even peaceful NPC in a secure system.
 
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You forget one thing, the number and class of ATR will depend on the security of the system.
Even if the player is playing in Solo he should think 10 times to kill even peaceful NPC in a secure system.
There's a limit to how much increasing NPC numbers and power will affect the player. Even something as simple as boosting in a weird/serpentine way and then running silent until FSD is up (then high-waking) could throw off AI. Humans have much greater potential as a threat than AI do, and I doubt Fdev intends to spend months-years developing a super-tactical AI that can outthink a player at nearly every turn. And make no mistake, it is NOT a trivial development task to create serious AI.

Quicker response times are trivial to program, a bit harder if you want them to be more realistic (IE, have the NPC fly from a certain area to wherever the conflict is, rather than just spawn in after a timer). Changing power of an NPC is a matter of altering a few variables. Changing the number of NPCs is also easy, though you have to account for potential speed/framerate issues if you change it drastically. Making NPC behavior smarter is the hardest thing to program, even though it will create the most reliable effective results. Game AI is made even harder than AI like the jeopardy AI 'watson' because AI researchers, for the most part, don't have to worry about frame rates or ensuring their AI can run on an i3 from 2008. Every time you run into a game where NPCs get stuck on walls, or can be trivialized through gimmicky strategies, there's a chance that a project manager had to weigh framerate or time against NPC difficulty. "Dumb" AI enemies may impact your experience, but not as quickly as lag does. I could be wrong on a few things, the only AI I've really worked with are a tic-tac-toe project in school and some very crude stuff for an unreal project.

And you will still run into the newbie issue again- let's say a new player wants to be a PVE pirate. If they don't understand security levels, they could easily get one-shotted by system security. It's true that the game should be dangerous/not locked to player skill levels, but there's a difference between "tough/OP" enemies and "rocks fall everyone dies" enemies. Even in Kenshi you can try to run away from beak things at early levels.

So, changing the NPCs could help mitigate things, but they will not solve the problem without dedicated a lot of time and manpower towards sophisticated AI (And making it run efficiently on top of that).

It's an interesting topic, to be sure! Coming up with things that improve the player experience without making sacrifices elsewhere is challenging.

Edited for precision of language
 
A PvE mode would add to the game experience, not detract from it, to be certain. If I decide to play PvE instead of PvP with you, that doesn't affect you any more than if I decided to play Scrabble instead of ED. However, I could understand an argument against letting players in PvE or other non-PvP modes affect powerplay or community goals, since those are intended to be competitive.

While researching, I did find this article about SDC infiltrating Mobius in order to kill PvE players. I find it interesting how a subset of PvP players took it personally that other players wanted to do PvE and said mean things about it on the forum, and then painted themselves as the good guys for attacking PvE players in a PvE server. That's not too different than someone hacking a peaceful mode/non-PvP server in Minecraft to allow them to kill other players (With access via social engineering instead of modification of the actual code).

(apologies for double post, I didn't see we were on a new page and I thought your response was interesting)
That's the weird bit of psychology. Some players take it very personally that others don't want to play like them and the game isn't designed how they want it. In their own heads I guess those SDC infiltrators somehow thought what they were doing was justified.
 
same old storey about gangers 3 years in this game,why worry ,im t elite fully engineered,they are basicaly wanna bees,,havnt got the trade or exploration,,keep knocking them out they will have to recover there re buy cost,with 15 billion credits in my accountnwho cares if i lose,not me lol
 
same old storey about gangers 3 years in this game,why worry ,im t elite fully engineered,they are basicaly wanna bees,,havnt got the trade or exploration,,keep knocking them out they will have to recover there re buy cost,with 15 billion credits in my accountnwho cares if i lose,not me lol
why do people assume that anyone who does pvp doesn't know how to trade or explore
it's certainly not a safe assumption that someone that trades doesn't know how to pvp
 
Most PvP players started off doing everything else.

In fact, you can’t access all of the engineers without doing a bit of of the activities in the game at least once, the exception being AX.

I feel it’s part of why we are generally so critical of people who complain instead of adapting to open. We started from nothing, same as anyone else, and the grind has only gotten easier over the years.

Being a whiner does nothing to improve your game experience— you either put in a bit of effort, or deal with the consequences that come with being unprepared in open.

If you don’t want to deal with that sort of thing, there are other modes. If only more took advantage of them. It would have saved me a good deal of typing over the past five years or so.
 
Most PvP players started off doing everything else.

In fact, you can’t access all of the engineers without doing a bit of of the activities in the game at least once, the exception being AX.

I feel it’s part of why we are generally so critical of people who complain instead of adapting to open. We started from nothing, same as anyone else, and the grind has only gotten easier over the years.

Being a whiner does nothing to improve your game experience— you either put in a bit of effort, or deal with the consequences that come with being unprepared in open.

If you don’t want to deal with that sort of thing, there are other modes. If only more took advantage of them. It would have saved me a good deal of typing over the past five years or so.
I don't think the "we had to do it when it was harder" argument holds up. Day one after release, you weren't dealing with other players in overpowered and overengineered ships killing you for no reason. Perhaps you were dealing with players of equivalent ships killing you for no reason.

There's also something to be said about how engineering itself has widened the gap between new ships and fully upgraded ships.

And perhaps the "whining" by looking for solutions is putting in "effort" towards overcoming this obstacle. Are you just mad because people aren't solving the problem the way you want them to?

I wonder what it'd be like if people of other gameplay styles started complaining about new players wanting a better experience. "Man, these guys go 1000 ly, break a fuel scoop, and go crying to the fuel rats! Back in my day we jumped uphill both ways to Beagle Point with a 10 ly FSD range. In the snow!"

I agree that a lot of the people who play the game have tried out the different playstyles, especially if they've been playing for awhile. More cynical thinking leads me to believe that gankers sitting at Deciat with their rank 5 engineering upgrades likely went for the guardian ruins in solo mode. Can't really blame them, there's gankers all around.
 
Is it very likely that a rookie dying at the hands of a person after exiting the safe zone knows about the block list? About the solo mode?
 
Is it very likely that a rookie dying at the hands of a person after exiting the safe zone knows about the block list? About the solo mode?
Not knowing about the block list makes sense because it's in a menu, but you're presented with solo mode as an option when you start the game. If the rookie has played MMOs before (Or most social apps, TBH), they will be aware that blocking is a typical thing, though they may not think to do it after being killed in PvP.

QOL things like EDRecon would be great if added into the base game, since they make it more obvious when you're entering a zone with lots of conflict (And make it easier to find said conflict if you enjoy PvP).

I don't think there's any reason why non-PvP players shouldn't play Open, or why they shouldn't use in-game tools or fdev-approved 3rd party tools to improve their experience. Heck, EDRecon's worth it just for the convenience of identifying materials without going into a bunch of menus.
 
Not knowing about the block list makes sense because it's in a menu, but you're presented with solo mode as an option when you start the game. If the rookie has played MMOs before (Or most social apps, TBH), they will be aware that blocking is a typical thing, though they may not think to do it after being killed in PvP.

QOL things like EDRecon would be great if added into the base game, since they make it more obvious when you're entering a zone with lots of conflict (And make it easier to find said conflict if you enjoy PvP).

I don't think there's any reason why non-PvP players shouldn't play Open, or why they shouldn't use in-game tools or fdev-approved 3rd party tools to improve their experience. Heck, EDRecon's worth it just for the convenience of identifying materials without going into a bunch of menus.
Newcomers even if they played other MMOs they also had to deal with two modes OPEN and SOLO and that it is the same?
I, for example, the first time I played a long OPEN think SOLO is a different profile.
 
Newcomers even if they played other MMOs they also had to deal with two modes OPEN and SOLO and that it is the same?
I, for example, the first time I played a long OPEN think SOLO is a different profile.
Ah, ok. When I started playing, it seemed obvious, but it's true that not everyone's played video games with both a single player and a multi player mode- and like you said, usually the profiles for those modes are different.

I still think it's far-fetched to say even someone completely new to video games wouldn't understand that there are multiple options, when they see that there are multiple options available. Although it's not explicitly said "you have the same ship and resources," it is implied by "share the same galaxy."

I don't think it's a game design or interface issue if folks don't understand that solo mode exists. It's true that design can always be improved to aid the user, but ED isn't really targeting users completely new to video games. In any case, I think this screen says more about the modes than other games might. Compare to Minecraft- without selecting the options, you don't really know what the difference is between Minecraft Realms and the other options.

Honestly, I don't know what else could be done by Fdev to improve the user interface here. I think I mentioned earlier that it wouldn't hurt to add "PVP" in big red letters, but it does say it- "you may encounter other commanders." It doesn't spell out PVP, but it also doesn't spell out trading, squadrons, factions, powerplay, or any of the other things you can do with fellow players. Too much text would negatively impact the UI, especially on new players who just finished the game download and want to start playing.

If you have an alternate design for the main menu, though, I'd be interested in seeing it.
 
I don't think the "we had to do it when it was harder" argument holds up.
Day one after release, you weren't dealing with other players in overpowered and overengineered ships killing you for no reason. Perhaps you were dealing with players of equivalent ships killing you for no reason.

Doesn’t change the fact that everyone has access to the same tools, and modes. There are also clear descriptions of each game mode. Before, there were not.

So what if a noob is killed for no reason? What does it cost, a bit of their time? Either they will learn to play another mode, or they will find their way. Perhaps a mix of both, at their convenience.

I myself started just before the release of Horizons— it was only after my encounters with hostile players months later that I began to engineer myself— predominantly in open. It is not difficult to learn to survive, and engineering is more accessible than ever.


There's also something to be said about how engineering itself has widened the gap between new ships and fully upgraded ships.

Again, we all have access to the same tools. Nobody was simply granted an engineered ship. Anyone who has joined us post-horizons and found their way is proof that it is very much possible to succeed late in the game.

I’ll agree that the gap is much wider, but at the same time, a new, equal baseline has been established post 3.0.


And perhaps the "whining" by looking for solutions is putting in "effort" towards overcoming this obstacle. Are you just mad because people aren't solving the problem the way you want them to?

Mad? No, of course not. However, I do enjoy riduculing adults who give up and cry instead of playing the game. I’ve gotten better at doing so politely over the years, as I’ve had a lot of practice.

I feel a common “Wah griefers bad!” post is vastly different from an “I need help, do you have advice?” post. Guiding along rookies is part of what has kept me playing for so long. I will always help when and where I am able.

Still, It is up to the individual to accept open for what it is, and realize that you’re going to blow up sometimes. It happens to the best of us, and is hardly a big deal.


I wonder what it'd be like if people of other gameplay styles started complaining about new players wanting a better experience. "Man, these guys go 1000 ly, break a fuel scoop, and go crying to the fuel rats! Back in my day we jumped uphill both ways to Beagle Point with a 10 ly FSD range. In the snow!"

I will also continue to tease people who complain about their 50ly range being insufficient. That’s incredible range, and anything over 30 is still great. We’ve just been spoiled!

I agree that a lot of the people who play the game have tried out the different playstyles, especially if they've been playing for awhile. More cynical thinking leads me to believe that gankers sitting at Deciat with their rank 5 engineering upgrades likely went for the guardian ruins in solo mode. Can't really blame them, there's gankers all around.

It is known that if you’re really trying to get something done, solo/PG is preferred. Not only will you be unbothered, but you won’t have to compete for materials with any friendly or neutral CMDRs who are also present. Same could be said for bounty hunting CGs— if you’re not being attacked, there are simply not enough targets to go around once enough friendly wings have gathered.
My responses are within the quote above, should you wish to go round and round for a few pages.

To anyone reading this, you can do it. I believe in you.

If even I can figure it out, the rest of you certainly can!
 
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